Drafting Training

[Hauwka]

All,

I have an employee that is responsible for developing construction
drawings using AutoCAD. The individual is very adept at operating the
software, yet lacks the fundamental understanding of proper drafting
protocol. I am the last one to mentor the individual, as I am not an
expert is this area. However, I do recognize some basic flaws in the
work. Can anyone recommend an intermediate level engineering graphics
course in the Atlanta GA area...something that concentrates on civil
engineering applications.

Thanks.

Hauwka

[Tim Badger]

Just to clarify, are you using vanilla autocad or something like Land
Development Desktop?


"Hauwka" <glkehler@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:96e62649.0408110700.4bc80f90@posting.google.com... All, I have an employee that is responsible for developing construction drawings using AutoCAD. The individual is very adept at operating the software, yet lacks the fundamental understanding of proper drafting protocol. I am the last one to mentor the individual, as I am not an expert is this area. However, I do recognize some basic flaws in the work. Can anyone recommend an intermediate level engineering graphics course in the Atlanta GA area...something that concentrates on civil engineering applications. Thanks. Hauwka

[Michael Bulatovich]

The meaning of "proper drafting protocol" is specific to your operation.
Is yours clearly defined?
Does it reside in a printed, referable format or is it just an idea in
somebody's head, handed down orally?
Do you even have one, or do you just have a notion that things ought to be
done in some general way?
Would this guy follow a protocol even if he had a printed copy of one?

A course in CAD at a school is unlikely to help you if your protocol doesn't
really exist, or if the guy is a CAD-outlaw, IMHO. They tend to focus on how
the use the application, not how to conform to a protocol.
--


MichaelB
www.michaelbulatovich.com




"Hauwka" <glkehler@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:96e62649.0408110700.4bc80f90@posting.google.com... All, I have an employee that is responsible for developing construction drawings using AutoCAD. The individual is very adept at operating the software, yet lacks the fundamental understanding of proper drafting protocol. I am the last one to mentor the individual, as I am not an expert is this area. However, I do recognize some basic flaws in the work. Can anyone recommend an intermediate level engineering graphics course in the Atlanta GA area...something that concentrates on civil engineering applications. Thanks. Hauwka

[Sporkman]

If your employee is on the north side of town have him check out the
course schedule at Southern Polytechnic and also the
Vocational-Technical school there in Cobb County (Marietta VoTech?, Cobb
VoTech?).

Mark 'Sporky' Stapleton
Watermark Design, LLC
www.h2omarkdesign.com

Hauwka wrote: All, I have an employee that is responsible for developing construction drawings using AutoCAD. The individual is very adept at operating the software, yet lacks the fundamental understanding of proper drafting protocol. I am the last one to mentor the individual, as I am not an expert is this area. However, I do recognize some basic flaws in the work. Can anyone recommend an intermediate level engineering graphics course in the Atlanta GA area...something that concentrates on civil engineering applications. Thanks. Hauwka

[Hauwka]

We're using AutoCAD 2005, vanilla. All 2-D at this point.

"Tim Badger" <tbadger@adlandsys.com> wrote in message news:<fkrSc.2645$0c.1922@read1.cgocable.net>... Just to clarify, are you using vanilla autocad or something like Land Development Desktop?

[Hauwka]

You have exposed a significant gap. The company does not have a CAD
standard, except in the heads of individuals, which means there is no
standard. In fact, I need this individual to be proactive by creating
a standard, but I do not feel he has the skills to accomplish this.

When I say "proper drafting protocol", I am refering to instances such
as...

- using solid line types when dashed lines should be used to depict a
hidden object
- calling out a section, but drawing the mirror view of the section

I believe that I have a "CAD-outlaw". The individual is an
application user, not an engineering graphics professional.

"Michael Bulatovich" <Please@dont.try> wrote in message news:<JUrSc.21615$Mq1.1146784@news20.bellglobal.com>... The meaning of "proper drafting protocol" is specific to your operation. Is yours clearly defined? Does it reside in a printed, referable format or is it just an idea in somebody's head, handed down orally? Do you even have one, or do you just have a notion that things ought to be done in some general way? Would this guy follow a protocol even if he had a printed copy of one? A course in CAD at a school is unlikely to help you if your protocol doesn't really exist, or if the guy is a CAD-outlaw, IMHO. They tend to focus on how the use the application, not how to conform to a protocol. -- MichaelB www.michaelbulatovich.com

[Michael Bulatovich]

You can't blame a guy for not conforming to a non-existent protocol. You
also can't blame him for not having the skill or aptitude for a job if he
was hired to do something else. If he was hired for this job, I'd be looking
at the guy who hired him.....

I've done a few protocols in offices over the years, and would suggest that
this should be done by the smartest, most efficient guy you can find with
extensive experience on the application. (The kind of guy who'll count
keystrokes.) Just because you can use the app doesn't mean you will
anticipate the many circumstances that the protocol will have to address.
This takes brains. It also doesn't mean that you are the kind of person who
will envisage a more efficient of doing things. If you don't have such an
individual, the result of letting a less-than-adequate person determine the
firms productivity for years to come by be disasterous. You might want to
shop for a consultant.

As for linetypes etc., these are drafting issues and examples of what my
buddy Stu "the Spoon" calls "slappy drofting". If the guy is sloppy, you
need to let him know what you expect and then not let him get away with less
than that. You need to get "slappy".

MichaelB
www.michaelbulatovich.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hauwka" <glkehler@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: comp.cad.autocad
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: Drafting Training

You have exposed a significant gap. The company does not have a CAD standard, except in the heads of individuals, which means there is no standard. In fact, I need this individual to be proactive by creating a standard, but I do not feel he has the skills to accomplish this. When I say "proper drafting protocol", I am refering to instances such as... - using solid line types when dashed lines should be used to depict a hidden object - calling out a section, but drawing the mirror view of the section I believe that I have a "CAD-outlaw". The individual is an application user, not an engineering graphics professional. "Michael Bulatovich" <Please@dont.try> wrote in message
news:<JUrSc.21615$Mq1.1146784@news20.bellglobal.com>... The meaning of "proper drafting protocol" is specific to your operation. Is yours clearly defined? Does it reside in a printed, referable format or is it just an idea in somebody's head, handed down orally? Do you even have one, or do you just have a notion that things ought to
be done in some general way? Would this guy follow a protocol even if he had a printed copy of one? A course in CAD at a school is unlikely to help you if your protocol
doesn't really exist, or if the guy is a CAD-outlaw, IMHO. They tend to focus on
how the use the application, not how to conform to a protocol. -- MichaelB www.michaelbulatovich.com

[Tim Badger]

"Hauwka" <glkehler@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:96e62649.0408120612.79031699@posting.google.com... We're using AutoCAD 2005, vanilla. All 2-D at this point. "Tim Badger" <tbadger@adlandsys.com> wrote in message
news:<fkrSc.2645$0c.1922@read1.cgocable.net>... Just to clarify, are you using vanilla autocad or something like Land Development Desktop?

With your response and the response you gave to Michael, it sounds like you
have someone who knows the basics of autocad and possess not much civil
experience. I'm curious, and if I am right in my aforementioned
assumptions, this person does not sound like the one you want leading the
charge. Do you have anyone else there with experience in both areas? If
so, I would give them the responsibility to form and implement those
standards as an interim cad manager. If not, send the one in question on
basic cad management and customization courses. These are usually available
as night school courses at local community colleges.

Hell, I'm look'n for a part time work, give me a call, I can probably do it
from here :-)

[R. Wink]

Wading in late, I'd say that the fellow you're referring to only knows the program AutoCAD and has not ever been taught
drafting. When he went to school, they only taught him how to use the program, not "drafting." When I was in school, I
spent 3 hours a day for two years in a "drafting" class just learning drafting..right angle projections, standard line
weights & types, aux views, sheet metal development and such. Has this guy ever seen a book on drafting or gone to school
for the basics of drafting?
There are standard line types for the representation of objects and almost any "drafting" text book will have the basics. I
don't know where you are but I'd send the guy back to school. Around here (Southern Indiana) our night school has blue print
reading and "drafting" classes. He just needs to conform to the industrial standards which it looks like he doesn't know.
R. Wink

On 12 Aug 2004 07:12:04 -0700, glkehler@bellsouth.net (Hauwka) wrote:
We're using AutoCAD 2005, vanilla. All 2-D at this point."Tim Badger" <tbadger@adlandsys.com> wrote in message news:<fkrSc.2645$0c.1922@read1.cgocable.net>... Just to clarify, are you using vanilla autocad or something like Land Development Desktop?

[Randy Jones]

A major issue in my mind of late... too many CAD "Operators" (you even see
ads for this position all the time). Check Amazon for a book perhaps or
search google for a time machine to a pre-CAD high school drafting class ;-)

"R. Wink" <rwwink@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:oaanh09m11p8q9m46qo9bvhcsat3a8nq8k@4ax.com... Wading in late, I'd say that the fellow you're referring to only knows the
program AutoCAD and has not ever been taught drafting. When he went to school, they only taught him how to use the
program, not "drafting." When I was in school, I spent 3 hours a day for two years in a "drafting" class just learning
drafting..right angle projections, standard line weights & types, aux views, sheet metal development and such. Has this
guy ever seen a book on drafting or gone to school for the basics of drafting? There are standard line types for the representation of objects and almost
any "drafting" text book will have the basics. I don't know where you are but I'd send the guy back to school. Around here
(Southern Indiana) our night school has blue print reading and "drafting" classes. He just needs to conform to the
industrial standards which it looks like he doesn't know. R. Wink On 12 Aug 2004 07:12:04 -0700, glkehler@bellsouth.net (Hauwka) wrote:We're using AutoCAD 2005, vanilla. All 2-D at this point."Tim Badger" <tbadger@adlandsys.com> wrote in message
news:<fkrSc.2645$0c.1922@read1.cgocable.net>... Just to clarify, are you using vanilla autocad or something like Land Development Desktop?

[Tim Badger]

"Randy Jones" <junk@j.com> wrote in message
news:PHpUc.41867$wM.24687@twister.tampabay.rr.com... A major issue in my mind of late... too many CAD "Operators" (you even see ads for this position all the time). Check Amazon for a book perhaps or search google for a time machine to a pre-CAD high school drafting class
;-)

That is a good point. It's akin to the old days and somebody showing up at
the office with a hand full of setsquares, scale, pencil, etc. but not a
clue how to use them in any real discipline. Now I'm dating myself...
started when computers weren't an option... they we the size of a house and
cost more.

[R. Wink]

I come from a time of T-Squares, triangles, sliding parallels, all forms of adjustable curves, circle and other templates,
erasing shields, ruling pens, ink, linen. In the days before erasing machines, drafting machines using Borco covering, thumb
tacks, pens knifes and other assorted things. And remember the old "blue print" machines or were they call "Ozwalds" with
all the ammonia? 'member how to make a print using the sun or bright lights?
R. Wink

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:22:51 -0400, "Tim Badger" <tbadger@adlandsys.com> wrote:
"Randy Jones" <junk@j.com> wrote in messagenews:PHpUc.41867$wM.24687@twister.tampabay.rr.com... A major issue in my mind of late... too many CAD "Operators" (you even see ads for this position all the time). Check Amazon for a book perhaps or search google for a time machine to a pre-CAD high school drafting class;-)That is a good point. It's akin to the old days and somebody showing up atthe office with a hand full of setsquares, scale, pencil, etc. but not aclue how to use them in any real discipline. Now I'm dating myself...started when computers weren't an option... they we the size of a house andcost more.

[Tim Badger]

"R. Wink" <rwwink@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:tq45i0daj0efibl3053bp7n8rip0pdlnlf@4ax.com... I come from a time of T-Squares, triangles, sliding parallels, all forms
of adjustable curves, circle and other templates, erasing shields, ruling pens, ink, linen. In the days before erasing
machines, drafting machines using Borco covering, thumb tacks, pens knifes and other assorted things. And remember the old "blue
print" machines or were they call "Ozwalds" with all the ammonia? 'member how to make a print using the sun or bright
lights? R. Wink

Oh man those old ammonia machines were deadly. I remember working at one
place where they didn't have it exhausting straight outside and you would
just about pass out when making prints and went home smelling like a dog
just pissed on you some days. Then they came out with the non-ammonia
machines, and the crap that used to build up in the developer reservoir on
those things... geeze it was horrid to clean out. Never made prints using
the sun, but I worked with a guy that spent some time in arizona and told
about doing it. One thing I get a kick out of, is the face on the young guys
when you mention using 'scum bags' for cleaning off the pencil smudges. You
know what, I still have a bit of a callus on my right middle finger from the
pencils and pens. Yup, it was quite a bit different back then, and the
drawings we produced looked like art work... and you could almost tell who
did the drafting without looking at the name.

TimB

[R. Wink]

I also have that callus. I could always tell who did the drawing, at least from our shop and a number of other nearby shops,
by the printing. Although we were all taught the single stroke style of lettering, each person had their own "wiggle" on it.
I had the opportunity once of working with a pair of guys that used triangles only. They lined them up on one of the lines
in the drawing and using 12", 6" and 3" triangles, moved across the drawing, then laid down some lines. Checked later, they
were a good as we could do with parallels and machines.
We didn't use the bags too much as they lightened the line weight and caused bad prints.
The way you make a print using a bright light is to lay the drawing face down on a light table, then cover with print paper.
After some time, an hour or so I think, you lift the print paper and put in a tube for developing. A small can with a
screen on it was filled with ammonia and the tube is set on the screen, letting the fumes travel up the tube. You can then
take the print out and start over. That's what a "blueprint" boy did in the begining..and that's when I started.
R. Wink
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:24:07 -0400, "Tim Badger" <tbadger@adlandsys.com> wrote:
"R. Wink" <rwwink@insightbb.com> wrote in messagenews:tq45i0daj0efibl3053bp7n8rip0pdlnlf@4ax.com... I come from a time of T-Squares, triangles, sliding parallels, all formsof adjustable curves, circle and other templates, erasing shields, ruling pens, ink, linen. In the days before erasingmachines, drafting machines using Borco covering, thumb tacks, pens knifes and other assorted things. And remember the old "blueprint" machines or were they call "Ozwalds" with all the ammonia? 'member how to make a print using the sun or brightlights? R. WinkOh man those old ammonia machines were deadly. I remember working at oneplace where they didn't have it exhausting straight outside and you wouldjust about pass out when making prints and went home smelling like a dogjust pissed on you some days. Then they came out with the non-ammoniamachines, and the crap that used to build up in the developer reservoir onthose things... geeze it was horrid to clean out. Never made prints usingthe sun, but I worked with a guy that spent some time in arizona and toldabout doing it. One thing I get a kick out of, is the face on the young guyswhen you mention using 'scum bags' for cleaning off the pencil smudges. Youknow what, I still have a bit of a callus on my right middle finger from thepencils and pens. Yup, it was quite a bit different back then, and thedrawings we produced looked like art work... and you could almost tell whodid the drafting without looking at the name.TimB