SQL*Plus replacement available

[Charlie]

View the screenshot and download the beta: http://www.sqlpal.com
Download: http://www.sqlpal.com/sqlpal.zip

SQL*Plus doesn't support up arrow for bringing back commands. You can
run sqlplus in a DOS window, but then the up arrow brings back lines,
not whole statements.

SQLpal meets the following basic needs:
* up arrow brings back previous command
* results are displayed in a grid
* does not require Oracle client to be installed
* does not require tnsnames.ora, instead just enter the host port and sid
* displays which database you are connected to, on the title bar
* can open multiple windows for connecting to multiple databases
* read-only schema browser, supports editing PL/SQL functions, procedures
* F7 to view command history
* can bookmark frequent used sql statements
* hot key for frequently used sql statements
* save grid as html
* one click to open result grid in Excel
* also has a scratchpad window with syntax highlighting

Please try it and let me know if you consider this a good replacement
for SQL*Plus. If not what can we add to meet your needs?

email us: sqlpal <at> sqlpal <dot> com

[Daniel Morgan]

no@spam.com wrote:
View the screenshot and download the beta: http://www.sqlspam.com Download: http://www.sqlspam.com/sqlspam.zip

The level of your hypocrisy is beyond any measure impressive.

You put a return email of no@spam because you don't want to spammed
while rudely ignoring the charter for this group and spamming all of
us.

I hope no one visits your web site or touches your product until,
and unless, you apologize for your hypocrisy, for spamming us, for
not being a good net citizen and reading the group's charter and
for a being a spammer. And reposting your message in the correct
usenet group.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Charlie]

In article <1086153976.753820@yasure>, Daniel Morgan says...no@spam.com wrote: View the screenshot and download the beta: http://www.sqlspam.com Download: http://www.sqlspam.com/sqlspam.zipThe level of your hypocrisy is beyond any measure impressive.You put a return email of no@spam because you don't want to spammedwhile rudely ignoring the charter for this group and spamming all ofus.

I disagree with you. I am not trying to sell you anything. Just because
I made a tool doesn't mean I shouldn't discuss tools.

--
Try SQLpal from http://www.sqlpal.com/sqlpal.zip

[Daniel Morgan]

no@spam.com wrote:
In article <1086153976.753820@yasure>, Daniel Morgan says...no@spam.com wrote:View the screenshot and download the beta: http://www.sqlspam.comDownload: http://www.sqlspam.com/sqlspam.zipThe level of your hypocrisy is beyond any measure impressive.You put a return email of no@spam because you don't want to spammedwhile rudely ignoring the charter for this group and spamming all ofus. I disagree with you. I am not trying to sell you anything. Just because I made a tool doesn't mean I shouldn't discuss tools.

That a spammer disagrees about how others react to his spam is rather
unremarkable.

You are promoting a product.
You are spamming.
Stop it!
Or is courtesy too difficult a concept for you?

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Charlie]

In article <1086204820.670870@yasure>, Daniel Morgan says... I disagree with you. I am not trying to sell you anything. Just because I made a tool doesn't mean I shouldn't discuss tools.That a spammer disagrees about how others react to his spam is ratherunremarkable.

The spammer here is you, in my opinion.
You are promoting a product.

I wrote a tool. I want to know what others think of it. If you want
to call that "promoting a product" go ahead. What do you have against
products? Is it your goal to live in a product-free world?
You are spamming.Stop it!Or is courtesy too difficult a concept for you?

Writing a useful tool and giving it away is a good thing, in my book.

I am not selling anything. But it looks like you are. I see those links
in your .sig is selling a $625 course. Your participation here is hardly
altruistic, is it? Are you posting here merely as a way to generate more
clicks to your course site? Hypocrite!
--Daniel Morganhttp://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asphttp://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.aspdamorgan@x.washington.edu(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Ulrich Kobsa]

Daniel Morgan wrote:
no@spam.com wrote: In article <1086153976.753820@yasure>, Daniel Morgan says... no@spam.com wrote: > View the screenshot and download the beta: > http://www.sqlspam.com Download: > http://www.sqlspam.com/sqlspam.zip The level of your hypocrisy is beyond any measure impressive. You put a return email of no@spam because you don't want to spammed while rudely ignoring the charter for this group and spamming all of us. I disagree with you. I am not trying to sell you anything. Just because I made a tool doesn't mean I shouldn't discuss tools. That a spammer disagrees about how others react to his spam is rather unremarkable. You are promoting a product. You are spamming. Stop it! Or is courtesy too difficult a concept for you?

Daniel,

why are you reacting so rude? Ok, he/she is not using his/her realname
and maybe .marketplace is the right group to post. But IMHO it is not
so clear that new tools offerings cannot be posted on this group. Where
it is forbidden in the charter? (btw: is this the right one:
http://www.orafaq.com/usenet/charter2.htm ?) One may suggest it when
reading the charter of .marketplace.

And be honest: are you always reading the charter for every newsgropup
you are posting?
As long as the charter is not always the first post visible on top you
cannot assume that everyone is reading the charter.

So please be a little bit more friendly and if you don´t like postings
like the original, then ignore it.


best regards,
Ulrich

--
Ulrich Kobsa
Posted using XanaNews 1.16.3.1

[Ed prochak]

no@spam.com wrote in message news:<c9kgs502g7a@drn.newsguy.com>...
[] I disagree with you. I am not trying to sell you anything. Just because I made a tool doesn't mean I shouldn't discuss tools.

IF you have read this group at all,
THEN you would have seen that we have discussed this topic MANY times.

Just because you offer this for free does not make it right.
It really belongs in the c.d.o.marketplace group.

This is not comp.databases.oracle.betatest


And we post these replies not to make you mad, but to make you learn.

Have a nice day. See you in c.d.o.marketplace next time.
Ed

[Charlie]

In article <4b5394b2.0406021227.422a0440@posting.google.com>, Ed prochak says...IF you have read this group at all,THEN you would have seen that we have discussed this topic MANY times.Just because you offer this for free does not make it right.

Why not?

People off free advice here, and that's OK. People offer free scripts,
here and that's OK. But if some one offers a free tool that's evil?
Why?
It really belongs in the c.d.o.marketplace group.

Why? I have nothing to market.
This is not comp.databases.oracle.betatest

But this is comp.databases.oracle.tools isn't it? And by the way I am
not just offering a beta for free. The program will be free even when
it gets out of beta.
And we post these replies not to make you mad, but to make you learn.

And what exactly am I supposed to learn? That making a free tool and
giving it to people is evil? It is evil to tell anyone about this tool
you made?
Have a nice day. See you in c.d.o.marketplace next time.

You have a nice day too, Ed. And no, you won't see me in c.d.o.m
any time soon.

And Ed, you I would like you to try my free tool: http://www.sqlpal.com
I think you will like it.

[Daniel Morgan]

no@spam.com wrote:
You are promoting a product. I wrote a tool. I want to know what others think of it.

And I think you have every right to do so. But you could have been
courteous and followed the rules and posted your request to
comp.databases.oracle.marketplace. You chose not to. You chose to
spam us.

If you want to call that "promoting a product" go ahead. What do you have against products? Is it your goal to live in a product-free world?

Not at all. I sell design, create, and sell products. But I do so in a
manner that is consistent with the rules. I don't hold it against you
that you have a product. I don't hold it against you that you are asking
for Beta testers.

I hold it against you that you (A) didn't read the charter or (B) read
it and chose to ignore it and/or (C) having been notified that you have
violated the charter and spammed us haven't had the courtesy, the
civility, or the maturity required to apologize for your error.
You are spamming.Stop it!Or is courtesy too difficult a concept for you? Writing a useful tool and giving it away is a good thing, in my book.

And in ours to. Posting a message in an inappropriate usenet group,
however, has nothing to do with writing a useful tool. It has nothing
to do with giving it away. And because you have been so rude few if
any of us have any interest in you or your book except to the extent
that we would like you to either suddenly mature, apologize, and
repost in the appropriate usenet group or just go away.

The choice is yours.
--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Daniel Morgan]

Ulrich Kobsa wrote:
Daniel, why are you reacting so rude? Ok, he/she is not using his/her realname and maybe .marketplace is the right group to post. But IMHO it is not so clear that new tools offerings cannot be posted on this group.

Actually if you read the charter ... and if you followed the discussions
on the subject here for the last 6 months you would know that it is
remarkably clear.

We do not want any commercial postings as they just invite more
commercial postings ... and almost all from self-righteous people
who haven't the courtesy to apologize and repost.

It is rude to spam. It is not rude to call a spammer by that name.

And anytime this group disagrees with me ... I will start posting
advertisements for everything I do of a 'non-commercial' nature
right here. And so will everyone else. And the amount of useful
technical discourse will decrease to near zero.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Daniel Morgan]

no@spam.com wrote:
In article <4b5394b2.0406021227.422a0440@posting.google.com>, Ed prochak says...IF you have read this group at all,THEN you would have seen that we have discussed this topic MANY times.Just because you offer this for free does not make it right. Why not? People off free advice here, and that's OK. People offer free scripts, here and that's OK. But if some one offers a free tool that's evil? Why?

Because it is a product. Advice is not a product. Scripts are not a
product. And the advice we offer and the scripts we provide are in
response to legitimate questions from members of the Oracle community
asking for advice to help them with education or employment challenges.
It really belongs in the c.d.o.marketplace group. Why? I have nothing to market.

Yes you do. And your refusal to recognize that makes you, in my mind,
far to challenged an individual to have ever written a 'useful tool'.
This is not comp.databases.oracle.betatest But this is comp.databases.oracle.tools isn't it?

I have dealt with 10 year old children asked to clean their room
reacting this way to guidance. This is hardly the kind of discourse
I would have expected from someone I presume to be an adult.

Which part of we don't want you violating our charter and posting
this type of message here is too difficult for you to comprehend?

And by the way I am not just offering a beta for free. The program will be free even when it gets out of beta.

I don't really care if you paid each and every one of us $1000 US to
test the software for 10 minutes. It is still a product promotion and
we don't want it here.
And we post these replies not to make you mad, but to make you learn. And what exactly am I supposed to learn? That making a free tool and giving it to people is evil? It is evil to tell anyone about this tool you made?

No. That we would appreciate it if you said the following:

"Please accept my sincere apology for posting in the wrong forum. I
am sorry if I offended anyone and will repost my offer at
comp.databases.oracle.marketplace."

So I will now put to you the challenge I have put to every other
self-righteous spammer. And not one of you has ever had responded.
What is it about posting your message at c.d.o.marketplace that
causes a problem as opposed to posting it here where it isn't wanted?

The truth is that you have every intention of making a buck off your
work, you are disingenuous not to admit it, and you think that by
posting in c.d.o.marketplace not as many people will see your P/R.

Be prepard for the fact that everything you post to one of these
groups, from this day forward, will be labelled spam. So either
play by the rules or leave.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Charlie]

In article <1086240564.233750@yasure>, Daniel Morgan says... I wrote a tool. I want to know what others think of it.And I think you have every right to do so. But you could have beencourteous and followed the rules

No, I have never agreed to live by your rules.
and posted your request tocomp.databases.oracle.marketplace. You chose not to. You chose tospam us.

"Us"? You speak for yourself.
If you want to call that "promoting a product" go ahead. What do you have against products? Is it your goal to live in a product-free world?Not at all. I sell design, create, and sell products. But I do so in amanner that is consistent with the rules. I don't hold it against youthat you have a product. I don't hold it against you that you are askingfor Beta testers.

You can hold it against me till the cows come home. Won't change a thing.
I hold it against you that you (A) didn't read the charter or (B) readit and chose to ignore it and/or (C) having been notified that you haveviolated the charter

Bullshit. I have (A) read the charter, (B) am not ignoring it, and you
are some bozo who "notifies" me that he doesn't understand the charter.
and spammed us haven't had the courtesy, thecivility, or the maturity required to apologize for your error.You are spamming.Stop it!Or is courtesy too difficult a concept for you? Writing a useful tool and giving it away is a good thing, in my book.And in ours to. Posting a message in an inappropriate usenet group,

Which would be this.
however, has nothing to do with writing a useful tool. It has nothingto do with giving it away. And because you have been so rude few ifany of us have any interest in you

Stop pretending you represent all participants. I have received plenty
of interest.
or your book except to the extentthat we would like you to either suddenly mature, apologize, andrepost in the appropriate usenet group or just go away.The choice is yours.

I would like you to go away. You clearly have no interest in discussing
tools. If you are interested in tools I encourage you to download mine
and discuss what new features you would like to see. And I'll try to add
them and you will benefit, and so will many others.

[Charlie]

In article <1086241236.262826@yasure>, Daniel Morgan says... Why not? People off free advice here, and that's OK. People offer free scripts, here and that's OK. But if some one offers a free tool that's evil? Why?Because it is a product. Advice is not a product. Scripts are not aproduct.

Think of a tool as an advanced form of script. That will put your mind
at ease.
And the advice we offer and the scripts we provide are inresponse to legitimate questions from members of the Oracle communityasking for advice to help them with education or employment challenges.

And I made the tool in response to legitimate complaints about the lack
of "up arrow support" in SQL*Plus for example:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=mxEo8.4584%24Vm5.34424%40NewsReader
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Bsz99.151130%24m91.6563000%40bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com
And many others.
It really belongs in the c.d.o.marketplace group. Why? I have nothing to market.Yes you do.

No I don't.
And your refusal to recognize that makes you, in my mind,far to challenged an individual to have ever written a 'useful tool'.This is not comp.databases.oracle.betatest But this is comp.databases.oracle.tools isn't it?I have dealt with 10 year old children asked to clean their roomreacting this way to guidance. This is hardly the kind of discourseI would have expected from someone I presume to be an adult.Which part of we don't want you violating our charter

What part of "no I am not" don't you understand?
and postingthis type of message here is too difficult for you to comprehend? And by the way I am not just offering a beta for free. The program will be free even when it gets out of beta.I don't really care if you paid each and every one of us $1000 US totest the software for 10 minutes. It is still a product promotion andwe don't want it here.

You are not an elected representative of this newsgroup, and I don't care
if you call it a "product promotion". Fact is, plenty of people downloaded
and are using a free product which they wouldn't have if they never
heard of it. Just because you are anti-product doesn't mean they should
not get a free product that helps them.
And we post these replies not to make you mad, but to make you learn. And what exactly am I supposed to learn? That making a free tool and giving it to people is evil? It is evil to tell anyone about this tool you made?No. That we would appreciate it if you said the following:"Please accept my sincere apology for posting in the wrong forum. Iam sorry if I offended anyone and will repost my offer atcomp.databases.oracle.marketplace."

And I would appreciate it if you said the following:
"Gee I realized I really don't understand what the charter is, and I
realize this tool is useful to a lot of people, and it does make sense
to discuss it here."
So I will now put to you the challenge I have put to every otherself-righteous spammer. And not one of you has ever had responded.What is it about posting your message at c.d.o.marketplace thatcauses a problem as opposed to posting it here where it isn't wanted?

And I will respond: (1) I have nothing to market. This will be a free
too even when it comes out of beta. (2) I would like to discuss the
tool -- whether it meets your needs, what other features can I add so
that it will be even more useful, etc. This newsgroup's charter is to
discuss tools.
The truth is that you have every intention of making a buck off yourwork, you are disingenuous not to admit it,

Why are you so terrified about the possibility that I might make a
buck off my work? Like I said, the program will continue to be free
when it comes out of beta. I will add features people want and they
will get a useful program for free. Just because you are terrified of
the prospect that I might make a buck shouldn't mean that no one
should get a free tool and get their favorite features added for free.
and you think that byposting in c.d.o.marketplace not as many people will see your P/R.Be prepard for the fact that everything you post to one of thesegroups, from this day forward, will be labelled spam.

Won't bother me. There are plenty of weirdos in this world. I will
ignore your posts.
So either play by the rules or leave.

You go read the charter again, and if you don't want to discuss tools
I suggest you spend your time in some other newsgroup.

[Charlie]

In article <1086240741.979111@yasure>, Daniel Morgan says... Daniel, why are you reacting so rude? Ok, he/she is not using his/her realname and maybe .marketplace is the right group to post. But IMHO it is not so clear that new tools offerings cannot be posted on this group.Actually if you read the charter ... and if you followed the discussionson the subject here for the last 6 months you would know that it isremarkably clear.We do not want any commercial postings as they just invite morecommercial postings ... and almost all from self-righteous peoplewho haven't the courtesy to apologize and repost.It is rude to spam. It is not rude to call a spammer by that name.And anytime this group disagrees with me ...

Wow! You have gone from being the self-appointed rule maker of this
group to threatening the group.
I will start postingadvertisements for everything I do of a 'non-commercial' natureright here.

If it is related to tools for using Oracle, and it helps people
participating on this forum and it is non-commercial to boot, then
why the hell not?
And so will everyone else. And the amount of usefultechnical discourse will decrease to near zero.

[D Rolfe]

no@spam.com wrote: In article <1086240564.233750@yasure>, Daniel Morgan says...I wrote a tool. I want to know what others think of it.And I think you have every right to do so. But you could have beencourteous and followed the rules No, I have never agreed to live by your rules.and posted your request tocomp.databases.oracle.marketplace. You chose not to. You chose tospam us. "Us"? You speak for yourself.

comp.databases.oracle.marketplace exists for postings such as yours.

Daniel may be verbose but his opinions aren't unrepresentative. Every
week someone such as yourself promotes his product in the wrong place
and then gets into a fight about his 'right' to push it in this
newsgroup. What you (and your predecessors) never seem to get is that
regardless of the rules you will find it hard to accomplish your
objective if you piss people off for no good reason.

The fact that a small number of people have visited your site after your
posting does not mean that you didn't annoy a much larger number of people.

I visited your site to verify my theory that:

-------------------------------------------
Nothing Worth Owning Is Marketed With SPAM.
-------------------------------------------

and guess what? My theory holds up....

[Ed prochak]

no@spam.com wrote in message news:<c9m96701q04@drn.newsguy.com>... In article <4b5394b2.0406021227.422a0440@posting.google.com>, Ed prochak says...IF you have read this group at all,THEN you would have seen that we have discussed this topic MANY times.Just because you offer this for free does not make it right. Why not? People off free advice here, and that's OK. People offer free scripts, here and that's OK. But if some one offers a free tool that's evil? Why?

1. You brought up the label "evil", I said "wrong topic"
2. it's according to the charter.
3. it is the culture of the group (iow, the general concensus).
4. hopefully you learn the fact of 2 and 3

Hey some groups are looser then others. learn to deal with it.
It really belongs in the c.d.o.marketplace group. Why? I have nothing to market.
interesting how you go from that^^^

[] You have a nice day too, Ed. And no, you won't see me in c.d.o.m any time soon. And Ed, you I would like you to try my free tool: http://[snip] I think you will like it.
to this^^^

smells like marketting to me.

As Curly used to say: don't go away mad, just go away!

[Daniel Morgan]

no@spam.com wrote:
and posted your request tocomp.databases.oracle.marketplace. You chose not to. You chose tospam us. "Us"? You speak for yourself.

I just tallied up the responses to your post and my calling it spam.
So far not one person, other than you, feels your post was anything
other than cheap sleazy self-promotion.

And you, like all of the other spammers, can't come up with a single
reason why posting in the designated group would be a hardship ....

I've no doubt, like D Rolfe, you have had some hits on your web site.
But if you aren't selling something ... why would you be counting? And
as has been stated by others ... you've done yourself a huge amount of
harm ... not one iota of good.

--
Daniel Morgan
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Open Wound]

Daniel Morgan <damorgan@x.washington.edu> wrote in message news:<1086332234.118414@yasure>... I just tallied up the responses to your post and my calling it spam. So far not one person, other than you, feels your post was anything other than cheap sleazy self-promotion.

I use freeware and I found the program useful. Making freeware is a
community service..
And you, like all of the other spammers, can't come up with a single reason why posting in the designated group would be a hardship ....

Does anybody ever read the "designated group"? I don't.
I've no doubt, like D Rolfe, you have had some hits on your web site. But if you aren't selling something ... why would you be counting? And as has been stated by others ... you've done yourself a huge amount of harm ... not one iota of good.

Not as far as I am concerned..

[Volker Hetzer]

"Open Wound" <openwound5000@aol.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:e33ccdb5.0406040712.5eaa2a38@posting.google.com... Daniel Morgan <damorgan@x.washington.edu> wrote in message news:<1086332234.118414@yasure>... I just tallied up the responses to your post and my calling it spam. So far not one person, other than you, feels your post was anything other than cheap sleazy self-promotion. I use freeware and I found the program useful. Making freeware is a community service.. And you, like all of the other spammers, can't come up with a single reason why posting in the designated group would be a hardship .... Does anybody ever read the "designated group"? I don't.
Exactly. So, if we show by our reading behavior that we are
not interested in what you want to advertise you simply ignore
what we tell you and push it on us harder, right?

Volker

[Paul]

damorgan@x.washington.edu says...
And anytime this group disagrees with me ... I will start posting advertisements for everything I do of a 'non-commercial' nature right here. And so will everyone else. And the amount of useful technical discourse will decrease to near zero.


Maybe there's a case to have a new group (thirdpartytools) with a
charter explicitly stating that it's the *_only_* group for 3rd party
tools and that it is explicitly forbidden to post anywhere other than in
3rdparty.

Also, maybe marketplace should be renamed jobs or roles or something,
since AFAICS, the vast majority of posts there are for jobs.


?


Paul...


p.s. I agree with your campaign, but sometimes one is just fighting a
losing battle with ignorance - better perhaps just one post saying that
this is not the forum and that if the OP doesn't cease and desist and
move their posts to 3rdparty they will be killfiled. The reason that I
suggest this is that your valuable time is being wasted on these losers,
rather than doing what you do best - helping with Oracle.

p.p.s. Does Oracle have its own newsgroups? Borland has a series of
newsgroups hosted on its servers, moderated by TeamB'ers (like MVP's?),
and the signal to noise is very high, with very high quality responses,
and it is not simply a slave to Borland. The moderaters can cancel
spams, but they have a 3rdparty group for such offerings.


--
plinehan y_a_h_o_o and d_o_t com
C++ Builder 5 SP1, Interbase 6.0.1.6 IBX 5.04 W2K Pro
Please do not top-post.

"XML avoids the fundamental question of what we should do,
by focusing entirely on how we should do it."

quote from http://www.metatorial.com

[Ed prochak]

"Ulrich Kobsa" <ulrich.kobsa@t-online.de> wrote in message news:<c9lcl3$tvc$07$1@news.t-online.com>... Daniel Morgan wrote:
[] That a spammer disagrees about how others react to his spam is rather unremarkable. You are promoting a product. You are spamming. Stop it! Or is courtesy too difficult a concept for you? Daniel, why are you reacting so rude?

When was Daniel rude, other than using a certain four letter word?

..... Ok, he/she is not using his/her realname and maybe .marketplace is the right group to post. But IMHO it is not so clear that new tools offerings cannot be posted on this group.

yes each group can set it's own culture. But I, Daniel, and others
have tried to keep the separation clear. It is all too eay for a group
to become useless if some guidelines are not followed.
..... Where it is forbidden in the charter? (btw: is this the right one: http://www.orafaq.com/usenet/charter2.htm ?) One may suggest it when reading the charter of .marketplace. And be honest: are you always reading the charter for every newsgropup you are posting?

That or reading the group for a period of time (the suggestion from
news.newusers is to read a group for a month before posting). Either
way, getting to know the people you are talking to is worthwhile.
As long as the charter is not always the first post visible on top you cannot assume that everyone is reading the charter.

BUT you should be able to assume everyone is READING the group before
POSTING. And that's exactly why NOT ignoring off topic posts and spam
is so important. So please be a little bit more friendly and if you don´t like postings like the original, then ignore it. best regards, Ulrich

Daniel is very friendly. He is also very direct. Some see that as
rude.

Now the real question for you is whether to argue if the original post
really belongs here. While you spoke about how Daniel's reply seems
rude to you, you took no real stand on the issue of the original
post's nature.

Do you think it is a great hardship to keep such posts in the
Marketplace group and out of this group? If enough people support such
a stand, it may persuade Daniel and myself. I've seldom seen more than
one or two (outside of the spammer) take that stand.

To other readers, especially lurkers:
Come on people speak up and take a stand. Ultimately in an open group
like this, persuasion is the final authority.

Ed

[Ulrich Kobsa]

Ed prochak wrote:
"Ulrich Kobsa" <ulrich.kobsa@t-online.de> wrote in message news:<c9lcl3$tvc$07$1@news.t-online.com>... Daniel Morgan wrote: [] That a spammer disagrees about how others react to his spam is rather unremarkable. You are promoting a product. You are spamming. Stop it! Or is courtesy too difficult a concept for you? Daniel, why are you reacting so rude? When was Daniel rude, other than using a certain four letter word? ..... Ok, he/she is not using his/her realname and maybe .marketplace is the right group to post. But IMHO it is not so clear that new tools offerings cannot be posted on this group. yes each group can set it's own culture. But I, Daniel, and others have tried to keep the separation clear. It is all too eay for a group to become useless if some guidelines are not followed.

That´s really ok to have some kind of moderation. What I don´t like is
the way Daniel is doing it: to replace parts of the original posting
with "spam" is not ok for me in this case. As english is not my native
language I cannot express it the way I like to do to describe Daniels
kind of answer: it´s the kind of sound he´s answering ( I hope you can
understand what I mean).

btw: a real spammer would hardly be impressed by such answers.
..... Where it is forbidden in the charter? (btw: is this the right one: http://www.orafaq.com/usenet/charter2.htm ?) One may suggest it when reading the charter of .marketplace. And be honest: are you always reading the charter for every newsgropup you are posting? That or reading the group for a period of time (the suggestion from news.newusers is to read a group for a month before posting). Either way, getting to know the people you are talking to is worthwhile.

Agree, but please have in mind that not every user knows that there is
a charter. If someone just has learned that there is something like
newsgroups (and such people exists!) i find it hard to assume that
his/her first action will be to search for charters. That´s not very
natural. The first reaction will be simply to post a question or
whatever he/she want´s to get from a interesting newsgroup.

As long as the charter is not always the first post visible on top you cannot assume that everyone is reading the charter. BUT you should be able to assume everyone is READING the group before POSTING. And that's exactly why NOT ignoring off topic posts and spam is so important. So please be a little bit more friendly and if you don´t like postings like the original, then ignore it. best regards, Ulrich Daniel is very friendly. He is also very direct. Some see that as rude. Now the real question for you is whether to argue if the original post really belongs here. While you spoke about how Daniel's reply seems rude to you, you took no real stand on the issue of the original post's nature.

My intention for posting an answer to Daniel was mostly the way he
answered because from a first reading I didn´t find anything wrong
about the original posting except from the no-name.
To post an tool offer to a .tools group seems to be natural for me (I
don´t read this group very regularly so I didn´t find it wrong).
According to the .tools charter I find no sentence where it is
explicitly told that tool offerings are not allowed to be posted here.
It will only become clear when you also reading the .marketplace
charter.
But IMHO this is a very unnatural distinction. If I want to discuss
about the offered tool I had to switch to a different group. That´s
strange. Have a look for borland.delphi.thirdpartytool.general: here
you can see offerings but also discussions about tools. That´s the way
I would do it. And if you have a commitment that every announcement
should be marked as [ANN:] then in most cases you can clearly seperate
discussion and offering.
Do you think it is a great hardship to keep such posts in the Marketplace group and out of this group? If enough people support such a stand, it may persuade Daniel and myself. I've seldom seen more than one or two (outside of the spammer) take that stand.

No, but as I told above it sounds unnatural to me. Could you or who can
do it add a new paragraph to the charter regarding this issue?. I for
myself can live with the current state as I know it now.

Well I hope now my point of view is a little bit more clear.

To other readers, especially lurkers: Come on people speak up and take a stand. Ultimately in an open group like this, persuasion is the final authority. Ed

best regards,
Ulrich

--
Ulrich Kobsa
Posted using XanaNews 1.16.3.1

[Daniel Morgan]

Open Wound wrote:
Daniel Morgan <damorgan@x.washington.edu> wrote in message news:<1086332234.118414@yasure>...I just tallied up the responses to your post and my calling it spam.So far not one person, other than you, feels your post was anythingother than cheap sleazy self-promotion. I use freeware and I found the program useful. Making freeware is a community service..

I do too. Now explain to us the relevant relationship between the fact
that we use something and someone's permission to violate the charter
and spam us?

And exactly how many times have you contributed to this group over the
last three years? last three months? last three weeks? last three days?

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Daniel Morgan]

Paul wrote:
Maybe there's a case to have a new group (thirdpartytools) with a charter explicitly stating that it's the *_only_* group for 3rd party tools and that it is explicitly forbidden to post anywhere other than in 3rdparty.

And a place to announce user group meetings
And a place to post seminar announcements
And a place to post requests for Beta testers
And a place to post ....

We have it already ... what no one has yet had the courage to step
up to the plate and answer is ... what is the harm in posting to
c.d.o.marketplace.

You spammers (not you personally perhaps Paul) seem to feel that
posting to the designated group is an imposition. Why? Give us one
good answer as to why this is a burden?

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Daniel Morgan]

Ulrich Kobsa wrote:
btw: a real spammer would hardly be impressed by such answers.

In one sense you are correct in another sense you are not. Look at
the way these spammers recoil in horror that someone has pointed out
how rude they are.

Look at how these spammers attempt to legitimize their spamming
through some pretext such as ... "I'm not charging for it ... today".

Look at how these spammers refuse to do the simple thing which would
be to apologize and repost.

If they weren't hypocrites and spammers they would just say "Oops" and
do as they've been asked. Their measure of contrived outrage is proof
that they are intentionally spamming.

--
Daniel Morgan
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Open Wound]

"Ulrich Kobsa" <ulrich.kobsa@t-online.de> wrote in message news:<c9qjln$l85$04$1@news.t-online.com>... Ed prochak wrote:
<snip> My intention for posting an answer to Daniel was mostly the way he answered because from a first reading I didn´t find anything wrong about the original posting except from the no-name. To post an tool offer to a .tools group seems to be natural for me (I don´t read this group very regularly so I didn´t find it wrong). According to the .tools charter I find no sentence where it is explicitly told that tool offerings are not allowed to be posted here. It will only become clear when you also reading the .marketplace charter. But IMHO this is a very unnatural distinction. If I want to discuss about the offered tool I had to switch to a different group. That´s strange.
<snip>

I agree. Think about what would have happened if Daniel had been around
some 12 years ago when Linus Torvalds made this post announcing Linux:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1991Oct5.054106.4647%40klaava.Helsinki.FI
Daniel would have flamed Linus for his "product promotion", called Linus
a spammer, demanded an apology and asked him to post in some "marketplace"
newsgroup that no one ever reads.

There is a need for balance. If product vendors fill this newsgroup with
advertisements then the newsgroup will be destroyed. At the same time it
doesn't make sense to paint with a broad brush and attack even freeware
programmers who may be trying to help people.

[Daniel Morgan]

Open Wound wrote: "Ulrich Kobsa" <ulrich.kobsa@t-online.de> wrote in message news:<c9qjln$l85$04$1@news.t-online.com>...Ed prochak wrote: <snip>My intention for posting an answer to Daniel was mostly the way heanswered because from a first reading I didn´t find anything wrongabout the original posting except from the no-name.To post an tool offer to a .tools group seems to be natural for me (Idon´t read this group very regularly so I didn´t find it wrong).According to the .tools charter I find no sentence where it isexplicitly told that tool offerings are not allowed to be posted here.It will only become clear when you also reading the .marketplacecharter.But IMHO this is a very unnatural distinction. If I want to discussabout the offered tool I had to switch to a different group. That´sstrange. <snip> I agree. Think about what would have happened if Daniel had been around some 12 years ago when Linus Torvalds made this post announcing Linux: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1991Oct5.054106.4647%40klaava.Helsinki.FI Daniel would have flamed Linus for his "product promotion", called Linus a spammer, demanded an apology and asked him to post in some "marketplace" newsgroup that no one ever reads. There is a need for balance. If product vendors fill this newsgroup with advertisements then the newsgroup will be destroyed. At the same time it doesn't make sense to paint with a broad brush and attack even freeware programmers who may be trying to help people.

If he'd posted it in comp.databases.oracle.server or tools you are
absolutely correct: I'd have nailed him for it and he would have
deserved it. He would have been off-topic and inappropriate.

Things are not made right or wrong because they are popular or because
in 20:20 hindsight they are deemed good.

If Linus, however, had posted his message in an appropriate usenet
group I'd have run right out and downloaded a copy.

The issue here is not, as you are trying to make it, one of being
allowed to announce or not announce. It is about being on-topic in
a specific usenet group. Had the exact same message been posted to
c.d.o.marketplace no one would have objected ... least of all me.

So don't try changing the subejct because I won't allow it. If you
wish to debate this with me the topic is ... not WHAT was posted ...
but rather WHERE it was posted.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Paul]

damorgan@x.washington.edu says...

Maybe there's a case to have a new group (thirdpartytools) with a charter explicitly stating that it's the *_only_* group for 3rd party tools and that it is explicitly forbidden to post anywhere other than in 3rdparty.
And a place to announce user group meetings And a place to post seminar announcements And a place to post requests for Beta testers And a place to post ....


Fine. Anything remotely to do with thirdparty.

We have it already ... what no one has yet had the courage to step up to the plate and answer is ... what is the harm in posting to c.d.o.marketplace.


I would say absolutely none. The only thing I would say about
marketplace is that when I first started lurking around here, I thought
that marketplace was a misnamed jobs board. It's all jobs and I couldn't
even see any tools or other stuff (except the usual crossposted
rubbish).

You spammers (not you personally perhaps Paul)


I resent this remark. I am absolutely *_NOT_* a spammer, nor am I trying
to in any way whatsoever justify the actions of spammers. I made my
suggestion about renaming 'marketplace' to 'jobs' and creating a new
group 'thirdparty' (and explictly making the 3rdparty group the *_only_*
forum for 3rdparty stuff) so that it would be easier for people to
understand the hierarchy and where they should post.

You will always get morons (aka spammers) who disregard the rules. I was
not posting to criticise the stance you take, but merely offering my
humble opinion that you might be wasting too much of your (and I said
valuable) time acting as an erstwhile king Canute on behalf of the
group. I have 10 posts from you in this thread, I would guess that you
have used up at least 15 minutes following it and responding to the
cretin "nospam" who has absolutely no intention of following anybody's
rules but his own.
seem to feel that posting to the designated group is an imposition. Why? Give us one good answer as to why this is a burden?

I never post (except in error, and this rarely - with apologies and a
repost in the correct group) to any group other than the designated one
and therefore do not feel obligated to provide an answer to your
erroneous assumption that I "feel" any such "imposition". I would
appreciate a retraction.


Paul...

--
plinehan y_a_h_o_o and d_o_t com
C++ Builder 5 SP1, Interbase 6.0.1.6 IBX 5.04 W2K Pro
Please do not top-post.

"XML avoids the fundamental question of what we should do,
by focusing entirely on how we should do it."

quote from http://www.metatorial.com

[Daniel Morgan]

Paul wrote:
And a place to announce user group meetingsAnd a place to post seminar announcementsAnd a place to post requests for Beta testersAnd a place to post .... Fine. Anything remotely to do with thirdparty.

My point was that we have a place for all of these things. We don't
need to create a proliferation of usetnet groups to cater to the small
number of posters/spammers that can't abide by very simple rules.
We have it already ... what no one has yet had the courage to stepup to the plate and answer is ... what is the harm in posting toc.d.o.marketplace. I would say absolutely none. The only thing I would say about marketplace is that when I first started lurking around here, I thought that marketplace was a misnamed jobs board. It's all jobs and I couldn't even see any tools or other stuff (except the usual crossposted rubbish).

To which one might suggest that you could have read the charter.
You spammers (not you personally perhaps Paul) I resent this remark. I am absolutely *_NOT_* a spammer,

How can you resent a remark after I specifically said "not you
personally"? Those words were written for a reason.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Harry]

no@spam.com wrote...View the screenshot and download the beta: http://www.sqlpal.comDownload: http://www.sqlpal.com/sqlpal.zip

Thank you very much. It's a nice tool and it is a better tool
compared with SQL*Plus.

I like the way that it can save the query result as html.

But it appears that Oracle has a another tool that can save
the query result as html; plus it can save the query result
together with the query command itself to the save html file.

Hope your tool can include this feature.

[Harry]

Harry wrote...But it appears that Oracle has a another tool that can savethe query result as html; plus it can save the query resulttogether with the query command itself to the save html file.

BTW, the tool is called Query Reporter.

[Harry]

Harry wrote...
But it appears that Oracle has a another tool that can savethe query result as html; plus it can save the query resulttogether with the query command itself to the save html file.

BTW, it is a free tool called "Query Reporter" from the company
selling PL/SQL.

[Daniel Morgan]

Harry wrote:
Harry wrote...But it appears that Oracle has a another tool that can savethe query result as html; plus it can save the query resulttogether with the query command itself to the save html file. BTW, it is a free tool called "Query Reporter" from the company selling PL/SQL.

Thank you for perpetuating this spam. I don't get enough of it
without the help of people like you.

No doubt you have encouraged others to now spam us too.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Harry]

Daniel Morgan wrote...
No doubt you have encouraged others to now spam us too.

Get a life, big brother.

[Charlie]

In article <Jhxwc.24743$jl6.23177@edtnps89>, Harry says...no@spam.com wrote...View the screenshot and download the beta: http://www.sqlpal.comDownload: http://www.sqlpal.com/sqlpal.zipThank you very much. It's a nice tool and it is a better toolcompared with SQL*Plus.I like the way that it can save the query result as html.But it appears that Oracle has a another tool that can savethe query result as html; plus it can save the query resulttogether with the query command itself to the save html file.Hope your tool can include this feature.

Thank you for the suggestion. I have added the feature, and the updated
beta is downloadable now: http://www.sqlpal.com/sqlpal.zip

I'll be happy to add any other feature you want, and the tool will
be free when it comes out of beta.

[JustinCaze]

To other readers, especially lurkers:Come on people speak up and take a stand. Ultimately in an open grouplike this, persuasion is the final authority. Ed

For me it's fairly easy:

when you recommend your own program, recruit beta testers for it etc.
without anyone asking for it, in the wrong group, then it's SPAM

If you recommend a program of a company your are in no way affiliated
with, to someone who has previously asked for a tool for that special
purpose it's HELP

just two cents from a lurker :-)

justin

[Paul]

JustinCaze@lurkers.com says...

If you recommend a program of a company your are in no way affiliated with, to someone who has previously asked for a tool for that special purpose it's HELP


I agree - you are either asking for help or giving it - anything else is
spam, especially if you are offering a product or service as the OP. If
you suggest a product or service which is appropriate to the request of
the OP then it is not spam.

It's fairly simple really. However, I think that a good killfile, plus a
bit of discernment over who are the real movers and shakers in a group
can normally suffice to eliminate most of the rubbish.


Paul...

justin

--
plinehan y_a_h_o_o and d_o_t com
C++ Builder 5 SP1, Interbase 6.0.1.6 IBX 5.04 W2K Pro
Please do not top-post.

"XML avoids the fundamental question of what we should do,
by focusing entirely on how we should do it."

quote from http://www.metatorial.com

[Harry]

no@spam.com wrote...
I'll be happy to add any other feature you want, and the tool willbe free when it comes out of beta.

Thanks, it was quick.

I ran into a problem.



With sqlpal: when I ran the a procedure with parameters, it barked
on "invalid SQL statement."

SQL>exec createv2login (1, 'mylogin@mydomain.com', 'HARRY', 'POTTER');
ORA-00900: invalid SQL statement


The procedure declaration is as follow.

(vCorpid in number,vUserId in char,vFirstName in varchar2,vLastName in
varchar2)

==

With SQL*Plus: when I ran the same procedure with the same parameters,
it was executed OK.

Any clue?

[Ed prochak]

Paul <paul@not.a.chance.ie> wrote in message news:<MPG.1b2eb924535bff989954@news1.eircom.net>... JustinCaze@lurkers.com says... If you recommend a program of a company your are in no way affiliated with, to someone who has previously asked for a tool for that special purpose it's HELP I agree - you are either asking for help or giving it - anything else is spam, especially if you are offering a product or service as the OP. If you suggest a product or service which is appropriate to the request of the OP then it is not spam. It's fairly simple really. However, I think that a good killfile, plus a bit of discernment over who are the real movers and shakers in a group can normally suffice to eliminate most of the rubbish.

Filters are not the answer. I post from GOOGLE for example.

GOOGLE filters some of the trash out, but gives no option for
filtering other than regular searches. That's not good because you'd
have to enter the search criteria each time you go to read the group.

And there is some borderline issues with recommending tools. It should
be in answer to a question/request. That can be easily seen, but it is
not always easy to tell that a person is "in no way affiliated" with
the tool. Some spammers have use that style to post off topic replies
in some groups (even to the point of overwhelming the group at times).

Good to hear from both of you!

Ed

[Sybrand Bakker]

On 2 Jun 2004 21:24:39 -0700, no@spam.com wrote:
But this is comp.databases.oracle.tools isn't it?

Tools means *Oracle* tools, not some thirdparty sw, promoted by some
spammer, who hides behind 'no@spam.com'
Seems like you are going to continue to piss off this group.
Please go away and post your promotions in .marketplace.


--
Sybrand Bakker, Senior Oracle DBA