Free database tools announcements - invitation to discussion

[DBA Infopower Support]

Dear colleague DBAs,



I would like to open a discussion on a very painful topic (at least to a
small number of forum long-timers) - the ability of DBAs and developers to
freely share tools they create on comp.databases.oracle.tools forum.



In many cases such attempts are harshly shut down and flames (in my
opinion) spread more ugly noise that any taken message itself alone.



I see the current situation as a clear dilemma:



If commercial database software advertisement would be allowed, we would
risk having too much noise messages that would interfere with the other
information.



While this concern seems to be valid, in my observation other database
forums (DB2, Sybase, Mysql and SQL Server) that accept tool advertisements
without any flame are not trashed, nor lose in discussion quality. So maybe
the risk is not that great?



On the other side, by constantly flaming new tool messages (including
open-source developments) the forum alienates the developer's community.
This community has huge potential in creating free database tools that would
be very suited to practical DBA needs - due to the fact that they would grow
based on feedback from real DBAs on this forum.



I think that a reasonable approach to this situation is to open the forum
to announcements of free database tools (from both individual developers and
companies).



The only condition is that the announced tool stays free forever.



Some would argue that free tools would be used as an indirect
advertisement, but wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that whoever produces
something of good value to the community would like to have a token of
attention in exchange?



This approach would enrich both communities - DBAs and developers and
would help to bring great and free database tools to life.



Regards,



Ron,

Support,

DBA Infopower LLC

http://www.dba-ip.com

[Daniel Morgan]

Ron wrote:
Dear colleague DBAs, I would like to open a discussion on a very painful topic (at least to a small number of forum long-timers) - the ability of DBAs and developers to freely share tools they create on comp.databases.oracle.tools forum. In many cases such attempts are harshly shut down and flames (in my opinion) spread more ugly noise that any taken message itself alone. I see the current situation as a clear dilemma: If commercial database software advertisement would be allowed, we would risk having too much noise messages that would interfere with the other information. While this concern seems to be valid, in my observation other database forums (DB2, Sybase, Mysql and SQL Server) that accept tool advertisements without any flame are not trashed, nor lose in discussion quality. So maybe the risk is not that great? On the other side, by constantly flaming new tool messages (including open-source developments) the forum alienates the developer's community. This community has huge potential in creating free database tools that would be very suited to practical DBA needs - due to the fact that they would grow based on feedback from real DBAs on this forum. I think that a reasonable approach to this situation is to open the forum to announcements of free database tools (from both individual developers and companies). The only condition is that the announced tool stays free forever. Some would argue that free tools would be used as an indirect advertisement, but wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that whoever produces something of good value to the community would like to have a token of attention in exchange? This approach would enrich both communities - DBAs and developers and would help to bring great and free database tools to life. Regards, Ron,

I don't see any issue at all Ron. Post the tools on your web site and
advertise that fact at c.d.o.marketplace.

How is anyone hurt by looking at c.d.o.marketplace?
How is anyone hurt by posting their notice at c.d.o.marketplace?
How is anyone imposed on by posting their notice in c.d.o.marketplace?

Those interested will go there looking for tools and happily report to
others what they found if they find things of value. Those that don't
wish to be bothered will not go there ... but then if you have nothing
to sell you have no reason to care that they didn't see your notice.

Unless of course ... you are really spamming ... and looking for the
largest audience for your spam.

So which is it? If you are trying to just be helpful post where we ask.
If you are looking for a larger audience for your spam ... try alt.test.
--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[jhking]

Daniel Morgan Wrote, Ron, I don't see any issue at all Ron. Post the tools on your web site and advertise that fact at c.d.o.marketplace. How is anyone hurt by looking at c.d.o.marketplace? How is anyone hurt by posting their notice at c.d.o.marketplace? How is anyone imposed on by posting their notice in c.d.o.marketplace? Those interested will go there looking for tools and happily report to others what they found if they find things of value. Those that don't wish to be bothered will not go there ... but then if you have nothing to sell you have no reason to care that they didn't see your notice. Unless of course ... you are really spamming ... and looking for the largest audience for your spam. So which is it? If you are trying to just be helpful post where we ask. If you are looking for a larger audience for your spam ... try alt.test.

I don't generally visit c.d.o.marketplace unless I'm looking for a job,
therefore I'm less likely to see such notices if only posted there. I'm
not a software publisher so I have no ulterior motives here. I'm
actually more annoyed by the long SPAM threads than by a single
announcement of an available tool. I understand Daniel's disinterest in
turning any of the groups into people's garbage bins for press releases,
but I don't think allowing free software to be announced will lead us
that direction.

This is the Charter for this group
Comp.databases.oracle.tools is a news group provided for discussion of
software applications and tools available from Oracle Corporation, or
designed to work with Oracle applications. Developers of end-user
applications will find this newsgroup most useful.

While usage has discouraged the posting of software announcements, there
is nothing in the charter making such postings off-topic. I agree
with Ron that we should stop chastizing those who post about free
Oracle-related tools.

[Daniel Morgan]

jhking wrote:
I don't generally visit c.d.o.marketplace unless I'm looking for a job, therefore I'm less likely to see such notices if only posted there.

Please excuse my frankness ... but your laziness should not be used as
an argument for someone spamming usenet groups. If you knew there were
things there of value you would look. If you didn't then your loss.

I'm not a software publisher so I have no ulterior motives here. I'm actually more annoyed by the long SPAM threads than by a single announcement of an available tool. I understand Daniel's disinterest in turning any of the groups into people's garbage bins for press releases, but I don't think allowing free software to be announced will lead us that direction.

If you allow these notices then where would you draw the line? How about
user group meetings? Seminars? Book announcements? eBay offerings? I am
a person that generally believes the world is painted in shades of gray
rather than in black and white. But the history of usenet proves that
those groups that do not defend their turf are overrun by spammers.

If you don't want to see long-running discussions perhaps the solutions
would be to just take 30 seconds each week to scan postings to
c.d.o.marketplace. And to help fight spam.
While usage has discouraged the posting of software announcements, there is nothing in the charter making such postings off-topic. I agree with Ron that we should stop chastizing those who post about free Oracle-related tools.

Isn't going to happen as long as the majority of the regular
contributors agree.

But once again you have avoided, as do the spammers, directly addressing
the issue I raise. What is the harm to someone making an announcement
in c.d.o.marketplace? How is it an imposition to them?

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[FredBear]

Daniel Morgan wrote: jhking wrote: there is nothing in the charter making such postings off-topic. But once again you have avoided, as do the spammers, directly addressing the issue I raise.

Daniel,
I don't understand. If you agree with jhking's interpretation of
this group's charter, then why are you telling him that his post
is SPAM? Is the charter not to your liking? Did your efforts to
modify it fail? Then I suggest you (re) read George Orwell's
"Animal Farm" and see how Napoleon, the pig, handled this sort of
problem.

Good Luck,
Avi.

[DBA Infopower Support]

Hello jhking,

I disagree with Daniel as well on his opinion that c.d.o.marketplace is a
proper place to write about and discuss free database tools.

But rather jumping myself (and since I already disclose my rationales) I
think what we need to here more opinions from the forum.

Regards,

Ron
Support
DBA Infopower LLC
http://www.dba-ip.com


"jhking" <jhking@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:cb7ikg$290@library1.airnews.net... Daniel Morgan Wrote, Ron, I don't see any issue at all Ron. Post the tools on your web site and advertise that fact at c.d.o.marketplace. How is anyone hurt by looking at c.d.o.marketplace? How is anyone hurt by posting their notice at c.d.o.marketplace? How is anyone imposed on by posting their notice in c.d.o.marketplace? Those interested will go there looking for tools and happily report to others what they found if they find things of value. Those that don't wish to be bothered will not go there ... but then if you have nothing to sell you have no reason to care that they didn't see your notice. Unless of course ... you are really spamming ... and looking for the largest audience for your spam. So which is it? If you are trying to just be helpful post where we ask. If you are looking for a larger audience for your spam ... try alt.test. I don't generally visit c.d.o.marketplace unless I'm looking for a job, therefore I'm less likely to see such notices if only posted there. I'm not a software publisher so I have no ulterior motives here. I'm actually more annoyed by the long SPAM threads than by a single announcement of an available tool. I understand Daniel's disinterest in turning any of the groups into people's garbage bins for press releases, but I don't think allowing free software to be announced will lead us that direction. This is the Charter for this group Comp.databases.oracle.tools is a news group provided for discussion of software applications and tools available from Oracle Corporation, or designed to work with Oracle applications. Developers of end-user applications will find this newsgroup most useful. While usage has discouraged the posting of software announcements, there is nothing in the charter making such postings off-topic. I agree with Ron that we should stop chastizing those who post about free Oracle-related tools.

[Charlie]

In article <1087873632.446652@yasure>, Daniel Morgan says...But once again you have avoided, as do the spammers, directly addressingthe issue I raise. What is the harm to someone making an announcementin c.d.o.marketplace? How is it an imposition to them?

Just because freeware is free doesn't mean a freeware author doesn't want
anyone using the product. In fact, the fact that a lot of people will
benefit, and that he can make a difference, is usually the motivation for
the freeware author.

As many/most people here have acknowledged, c.d.o.marketplace is a blackhole.
Most people interested in tools visit the tools group, not the marketplace
group. If the marketplace group is the only outlet then there is no point
spending any time writing useful, free tools. It is a waste of time. The
author may give up on the idea, and the community misses out on a useful,
free tool.

[Daniel Morgan]

Ron wrote:
Hello jhking, I disagree with Daniel as well on his opinion that c.d.o.marketplace is a proper place to write about and discuss free database tools. But rather jumping myself (and since I already disclose my rationales) I think what we need to here more opinions from the forum. Regards, Ron

As a well known spammer I am not surprised. But still you refuse to
address the question of why posting to c.d.o.marketplace is an
imposition on you or anyone else.

Swirm as you might I will keep bringing you back to that question
until you address it directly.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Daniel Morgan]

the spammers have won :-( wrote:
Daniel Morgan wrote: jhking wrote: there is nothing in the charter making such postings off-topic. But once again you have avoided, as do the spammers, directly addressing the issue I raise. Daniel, I don't understand. If you agree with jhking's interpretation of this group's charter, then why are you telling him that his post is SPAM? Is the charter not to your liking? Did your efforts to modify it fail? Then I suggest you (re) read George Orwell's "Animal Farm" and see how Napoleon, the pig, handled this sort of problem. Good Luck, Avi.

I did not agree with his interpretation. This issue has been hashed
over many times in this group and the vast majority of regulars have
always agreed that there it is not a hardship to ask people to post
promotional items at c.d.o.marketplace.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[D Rolfe]

no@spam.com wrote:
Just because freeware is free doesn't mean a freeware author doesn't want anyone using the product. In fact, the fact that a lot of people will benefit, and that he can make a difference, is usually the motivation for the freeware author.

Yes, but how do well tell 'always free' from 'free for now'?
As many/most people here have acknowledged, c.d.o.marketplace is a blackhole. Most people interested in tools visit the tools group, not the marketplace group. If the marketplace group is the only outlet then there is no point spending any time writing useful, free tools. It is a waste of time. The author may give up on the idea, and the community misses out on a useful, free tool.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that this newsgroup is the *only*
place on the internet you can promote a product :) ?

David Rolfe

[Daniel Morgan]

Comments in-line.

no@spam.com wrote:
In article <1087873632.446652@yasure>, Daniel Morgan says...But once again you have avoided, as do the spammers, directly addressingthe issue I raise. What is the harm to someone making an announcementin c.d.o.marketplace? How is it an imposition to them? Just because freeware is free doesn't mean a freeware author doesn't want anyone using the product.

Agreed. So how does posting to c.d.o.marketplace impose a hardship on
the author. Those that want to see announcements will look there. Those
that don't won't. They call that target marketing.

In fact, the fact that a lot of people will benefit, and that he can make a difference, is usually the motivation for the freeware author.

Who decides who will benefit from the offering of a product or service?
The promoter or the purchaser/consumer? You are weighing in on the side
of letting the vendor make that decision. I am weighing in on the side
of protecting the usenet group and letting the consumers (us) make the
decision.
As many/most people here have acknowledged, c.d.o.marketplace is a blackhole.

Really? So what you are saying is that no one here wants to view
promotional postings? If that is the case then that should be respected.
When I hang up the phone on a telemarketer that does not give them the
right to come knock on my door.
Most people interested in tools visit the tools group, not the marketplace group.

No. Most people understand that tools means Oracle tools ... not
third-party tools. But lets try it your way. I will start posting
things about Informatica, Crystal Reports, Cognos, Brio, PeopleSoft,
SAP, Baan, Bea, TOAD, SQL*Navigator, every product in the product line
of Computer Associates and BMC. Heck lets throw in TORA, and hundreds of
others. After all ... they are all tools that work with Oracle.
Shouldn't they get equal rights?

Hey Microsoft's MS Access can be used to front-end Oracle Apps. How
about promotions for MS Access? And SQL Server can be used to extract
data too. How about promotions for SQL Server?

Is that really what you want? Promotions from everyone that can spell
the word Oracle? I hope not!

If the marketplace group is the only outlet then there is no point spending any time writing useful, free tools.

And if there is no god then there is no point in being honest and decent
so lets all go on a homicidal rampage and smash David Bowie albums.

Surely you don't believe what you wrote.

It is a waste of time. The author may give up on the idea, and the community misses out on a useful, free tool.

Or the author could just post to c.d.o.marketplace and let those
interested tell the user community. Or the authors could post a
reference to their tool in responding to a legitimate request for
help in a different c.d.o usenet group. Or the author could get
their tool written up in Oracle Magazine. Or the author could go
to a user group meeting and demo the tool. Or the author could do
a zillion other things. Heck I'll post any decent and useful tool
at http://www.psoug.org and not one has ever been submitted nor
asked to present at a meeting. And the PSOUG web site gets a lot
more traffic than all these usenet groups combined.

Sorry but I'm not buying the argument. As far as I am concerned
they are all just spammers trying to get something for nothing.
Every one hoping to charge for their product when, and if, they
can.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[D Rolfe]

Ron wrote: Dear colleague DBAs, On the other side, by constantly flaming new tool messages (including open-source developments) the forum alienates the developer's community. This community has huge potential in creating free database tools that would be very suited to practical DBA needs - due to the fact that they would grow based on feedback from real DBAs on this forum. I think that a reasonable approach to this situation is to open the forum to announcements of free database tools (from both individual developers and companies).

The problem is that many of the so called 'free' tools are in fact being
developed for the market by people who intend to go commercial at a
future date. I can think of an obvious recent example of this.

Why should such people be permitted to advertise when companies that are
honest enough to be up front about the non-free nature of their products
aren't?

I work for a company that makes no bones about the fact that our stuff
isn't free, hasn't been free and isn't going to be free for the simple
reason it cost time and money to develop and test.

We limit our USENET marketing to the marketplace forum because that's
what most people are expecting us to do and we're more interested in
seeding google groups than a response over the next couple of days.

The only condition is that the announced tool stays free forever.

And how, pray tell, do you propose we enforce that?

IMHO what's actually needed is comp.databases.oracle.announce ....

David Rolfe

[jhking]

Daniel Morgan wrote: Please excuse my frankness ... but your laziness should not be used as an argument for someone spamming usenet groups. If you knew there were things there of value you would look. If you didn't then your loss.
Indeed I'm making an argument from convenience. I, and it appears a
fair number of other posters to this group, would find it more
convenient not to have to slog through want ads for jobs they don't want
to find out about tools. Your argument is also about convenience, you
don't want to see ads for software in c.d.o.tools. Neither of these is
a higher moral ground, either position is based on local conventions or
"house rules". I'm suggesting we change the house rules simply because
I'd prefer them to be different. If you allow these notices then where would you draw the line? How about user group meetings? Seminars? Book announcements? eBay offerings? I am a person that generally believes the world is painted in shades of gray rather than in black and white. But the history of usenet proves that those groups that do not defend their turf are overrun by spammers.
If its for money, it goes in marketplace. That is a clear unambiguous
rule. It would disallow book announcements and ebay offerings and most
seminars. Since an active UG communtiy is helpful to a product I'd
encourage UG meeting announcements. A marketplace is where things are
bought and sold, telling people who want to sell stuff go to the
marketplace is an easy rule to understand. Telling folks who want to
GIVE THINGS AWAY they must go to the marketplace is confusing. If you don't want to see long-running discussions perhaps the solutions would be to just take 30 seconds each week to scan postings to c.d.o.marketplace. And to help fight spam.
Even if I look in c.d.o.marketplace for such items that won't stop
people from posting announcements of free products to this group and the
long, tedious threads that result therefrom. Your solution doesn't make
those posts go away. If we could make this a moderated group and you
the moderator I'd be perfectly willing to see all the announcements go
away and then your advice would address the issue. What I'm saying is
the convention that such announcements are OT is so routinely ignored Isn't going to happen as long as the majority of the regular contributors agree.
You can of course define "regular contributor" how you wish, but of the
6 different people that have posted to this discussion the opinions are
4-2 in favor of allowing postings of free tools.
But once again you have avoided, as do the spammers, directly addressing the issue I raise. What is the harm to someone making an announcement in c.d.o.marketplace? How is it an imposition to them?
As FAQs for Oracle groups are not posted regularly and the charter to
this group is, at best, ambiguous about whether such tool postings are
OT, it is confusing to tool builders to carp at them for announcing
their free tools. Nevertheless tool builders COULD post their
announcements in only C.D.O.Marketplace with no inconvenience to THEM.
What I'm concerned with is inconvenience to ME, both in terms of missing
out on good tools and having to slog through long threads of "tool
builder X is a SPAMMER". I honestly believe the signal/noise ratio of
the group would go up if postings of availability of free tools were not
followed by 2-20 posts about apologies and SPAMMING.

[FredBear]

Daniel Morgan wrote: the spammers have won :-( wrote: Daniel Morgan wrote: jhking wrote: Daniel, I don't understand. If you agree with jhking's interpretation of this group's charter, I did not agree with his interpretation.

I still don't understand. You totally ignored all of jhking's
references to (and excerpts from) this group's charter. Since
you didn't refute his interpretation, that implies that you
agree with it. So my question remains (unanswered): if you
(and the vast majority of regulars) disagree with this group's
charter, why were you not successful in getting the charter
modified? Or do you simply prefer (and enjoy?) chastizing people
who don't do things the way you would like them to be done?

Good Luck,
Avi.

[Daniel Morgan]

Jason King wrote:
If you allow these notices then where would you draw the line? How about user group meetings? Seminars? Book announcements? eBay offerings? I am a person that generally believes the world is painted in shades of gray rather than in black and white. But the history of usenet proves that those groups that do not defend their turf are overrun by spammers. If its for money, it goes in marketplace.

And how do you propose we separate "it is for money today" from "it will
be for money tomorrow"?
It would disallow book announcements and ebay offerings and most seminars.

On what grounds? Isn't it inconvenient to have to look through
c.d.o.marketplace for them?

Since an active UG communtiy is helpful to a product I'd encourage UG meeting announcements. A marketplace is where things are bought and sold, telling people who want to sell stuff go to the marketplace is an easy rule to understand. Telling folks who want to GIVE THINGS AWAY they must go to the marketplace is confusing.

Not for most of us. So where do we announce user group meetings? Free
seminars? Oracle Technology Day events? Microsoft Technology Days?
If you don't want to see long-running discussions perhaps the solutions would be to just take 30 seconds each week to scan postings to c.d.o.marketplace. And to help fight spam. Even if I look in c.d.o.marketplace for such items that won't stop people from posting announcements of free products to this group and the long, tedious threads that result therefrom.

Actually it does. The fact that when I attach the word spam to every
attempt to do so the spammers scream so loudly indicates that they are
being hurt by pointing out what they do.

Your solution doesn't make those posts go away.

But it does decrease the number of them.

If we could make this a moderated group and you the moderator I'd be perfectly willing to see all the announcements go away and then your advice would address the issue. What I'm saying is the convention that such announcements are OT is so routinely ignored

It isn't my group and I don't want to be moderator. The group belongs,
if such a term is proper, to its major regular contributors that
actually help those seeking support services.

The convention nowhere I've ever been is to ignore spammers.
Isn't going to happen as long as the majority of the regular contributors agree. You can of course define "regular contributor" how you wish, but of the 6 different people that have posted to this discussion the opinions are 4-2 in favor of allowing postings of free tools.

Of which several of them are people that have previously spammed this
group and not one of which is a regular contributor that has helped
others when they've had questions.
But once again you have avoided, as do the spammers, directly addressing the issue I raise. What is the harm to someone making an announcement in c.d.o.marketplace? How is it an imposition to them? As FAQs for Oracle groups are not posted regularly and the charter to this group is, at best, ambiguous about whether such tool postings are OT, it is confusing to tool builders to carp at them for announcing their free tools.

Not responseive to the question above.

Nevertheless tool builders COULD post their announcements in only C.D.O.Marketplace with no inconvenience to THEM.

Thank you.
What I'm concerned with is inconvenience to ME, both in terms of missing out on good tools and having to slog through long threads of "tool builder X is a SPAMMER".

c.d.o.marketplace gets, at most, 2-3 posts per day. If you looked every
day the inconvenience would be less than 5 seconds. Is your life that
full of panic that you can't invest 5 seconds to fight spam?

I honestly believe the signal/noise ratio of the group would go up if postings of availability of free tools were not followed by 2-20 posts about apologies and SPAMMING.

So how about a free tool from Microsoft to migrate from Oracle to SQL
Server ... would that be appropriate? How about one from IBM?

If you make a hole through which spammers can crawl they will. I am
encouraging a zero-tolerance policy. So while I do respect the fact that
you have invested time and effort in this thread. The bottom-line for me
is that you too acknowledge it is not an inconvenience for someone with
a promotional item to post at c.d.o.marketplace. Now if I could just get
you to invest those 5 seconds per day to look there I might have a
convert from the dark side. ;-)

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Daniel Morgan]

the spammers have won :-( wrote:
Daniel Morgan wrote: the spammers have won :-( wrote: Daniel Morgan wrote:> jhking wrote:> Daniel, I don't understand. If you agree with jhking's interpretation of this group's charter, I did not agree with his interpretation. I still don't understand. You totally ignored all of jhking's references to (and excerpts from) this group's charter. Since you didn't refute his interpretation, that implies that you agree with it. So my question remains (unanswered): if you (and the vast majority of regulars) disagree with this group's charter, why were you not successful in getting the charter modified? Or do you simply prefer (and enjoy?) chastizing people who don't do things the way you would like them to be done? Good Luck, Avi.

They have been brought up numerous times and dealt with in the
c.d.o. groups. I saw no reason to rehash that which had already
been dealt with.

I enjoy the group as a place where members of a community, those
using Oracle Corp. tools, can exchange information and help each
other. I don't enjoy seeing personal greed by persons promoting
an agenda taking advantage of the fact that there isn't a cop
guarding the door.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Charlie]

In article <1087886875.88902@yasure>, Daniel Morgan says...But once again you have avoided, as do the spammers, directly addressingthe issue I raise. What is the harm to someone making an announcementin c.d.o.marketplace? How is it an imposition to them? Just because freeware is free doesn't mean a freeware author doesn't want anyone using the product.Agreed. So how does posting to c.d.o.marketplace impose a hardship onthe author. Those that want to see announcements will look there.

Prove it. As others have pointed out, most people who want to learn
about tools come here.
Those that don't won't. They call that target marketing. In fact, the fact that a lot of people will benefit, and that he can make a difference, is usually the motivation for the freeware author.Who decides who will benefit from the offering of a product or service?The promoter or the purchaser/consumer? You are weighing in on the sideof letting the vendor make that decision. I am weighing in on the sideof protecting the usenet group and letting the consumers (us) make thedecision.

You are "protecting the usenet group" be banning any mention here of a
useful free tool that solves problems that people have mentioned here,
and may be interested in?
As many/most people here have acknowledged, c.d.o.marketplace is a blackhole.Really? So what you are saying is that no one here wants to viewpromotional postings?

No. What I am saying is that people find it to be an unnatural distinction
that they have to go somewhere else to find out about these tools. They
expect to find out about them here.
If that is the case then that should be respected.When I hang up the phone on a telemarketer that does not give them theright to come knock on my door. Most people interested in tools visit the tools group, not the marketplace group.No. Most people understand that tools means Oracle tools ... notthird-party tools.

Prove it. "oracle.tools" does not necessarily mean "tools made by Oracle"
it means "tools for using Oracle."
But lets try it your way. I will start postingthings about Informatica, Crystal Reports, Cognos, Brio, PeopleSoft,SAP, Baan, Bea, TOAD, SQL*Navigator, every product in the product lineof Computer Associates and BMC. Heck lets throw in TORA, and hundreds ofothers. After all ... they are all tools that work with Oracle.Shouldn't they get equal rights?

Absolutely. You mean I should go to some other group to ask a question
about using Toad with Oracle?
Hey Microsoft's MS Access can be used to front-end Oracle Apps. Howabout promotions for MS Access? And SQL Server can be used to extractdata too. How about promotions for SQL Server?

If someone wants to ask a question about using those products with
Oracle in a capacity as a tool, this is the place to ask.
Is that really what you want? Promotions from everyone that can spellthe word Oracle? I hope not!

I don't view an question about a third-party product for Oracle as
a "promotion".
If the marketplace group is the only outlet then there is no point spending any time writing useful, free tools.And if there is no god then there is no point in being honest and decentso lets all go on a homicidal rampage and smash David Bowie albums.Surely you don't believe what you wrote.

Don't be crazy. I absolutely believe what I wrote. No one in their right
mind will spend any time writing free tools if he/she is not allowed to
mention it anywhere except in some marketplace group which no one reads.
It is a waste of time. The author may give up on the idea, and the community misses out on a useful, free tool.Or the author could just post to c.d.o.marketplace and let thoseinterested tell the user community.

I have already debunked that argument.
Or the authors could post areference to their tool in responding to a legitimate request forhelp in a different c.d.o usenet group.

I see no need to wait around.
Or the author could gettheir tool written up in Oracle Magazine.

If the tool is big enough in scope.
Or the author could goto a user group meeting and demo the tool.

On top of spending time creating the free tool he now has to do what?
Or the author could doa zillion other things. Heck I'll post any decent and useful toolat http://www.psoug.org and not one has ever been submitted norasked to present at a meeting. And the PSOUG web site gets a lotmore traffic than all these usenet groups combined.Sorry but I'm not buying the argument. As far as I am concernedthey are all just spammers trying to get something for nothing.Every one hoping to charge for their product when, and if, theycan.

As long as the community gets something in exchange *now* it is
not something for "nothing".

[Norman Dunbar]

Ok, here's my take on the matter - as a non-spamming somewhat less
than regular poster.

I never look at CDO.Marketplace - it has no relevance to me in the UK.
Whan I have looked at it (oops, that breaks my 'never' definition I
suppose) it has been full of jobs for Oracle people in the USA. No
good to me, it's not a place I ever plan to visit.

I don't use tools that have been advertised here either. I may go and
have a look at the web site (rare) or even download one or two of them
(very rare) but if I need a toll I use TOAD or write my own. The joys
of having a development past !

I do loath and detest the way that (almost ?) every poster who
posts/spams (delete as appropriate) this non-marketplace NG screams
abuse when asked to go elsewhere - what's the big deal. If Marketplace
was full of stuff other than bleeding US jobs, I might be tempted to
look there.

Can someone please answer Daniel's question - what's wrong with
marketplace ?

On the other hand, what's also wrong with a new (or renamed)
marketplace split into CDOM.jobs and CDOM.freestuff and even
CDOM.stuff where tools of the kind mentioned can be freely advertised
in the appropriate NG. It works on the Borland NGs - and if you post
the wrong thing there you get seriously shat on by TeamB.

The difference between CDO and Borland NGs is that the Borland ones
are monitored by TeamB and no crap gets through - there's no/very
little personal abuse, no religous crap, no nothing that isn't related
to the NG title. They do have an off-topic NG for all the crap stuff
and that can be quite 'lively' at times.

Spammers will refuse to obey the rules of any NG, so I personally
think that Daniel is wasting his time. On the other hand, you could
have said that about the people trying to abolish slavery (they're
geting there !) or about Martin Luther King etc.

So in summary,

CDOM.jobs, CDOM.freestuff, CDOM.stuff are required.
This is not a marketplace.
And Spammers can go fcuk themselves :o) (Apologies to the real FCUK
company for blatant misuse of their advertising campaign !)


Cheers from round the side of the firewall.
Norman.



Remove the obvious bit to reply to my email address.

[jhking]

Daniel Morgan wrote:
And how do you propose we separate "it is for money today" from "it will be for money tomorrow"?
I suspect you're just carping now, as I doubt that anything I say will
change your mind, nevertheless: since we can't predict the future
trying to police against software that might be charged for later is not
practicable. It would disallow book announcements and ebay offerings and most seminars. On what grounds? Isn't it inconvenient to have to look through c.d.o.marketplace for them?
You asked for a rule, I suggested a rule: If its for money it goes in
marketplace. Not for most of us. So where do we announce user group meetings? Free seminars? Oracle Technology Day events? Microsoft Technology Days?
Since Oracle posts here already us saying they can or they can't won't
have much effect. Our house rules aren't likely to affect MS if they
decide to start spamming the c.d.o hierarchy either.
Actually it does. The fact that when I attach the word spam to every attempt to do so the spammers scream so loudly indicates that they are being hurt by pointing out what they do.
And we wind up with days where a substantial portion of the traffic on
this group is about "yes its spam" "no it isn't". That's what really
annoys me and what I'm trying to end.
The convention nowhere I've ever been is to ignore spammers.
What we are having, I think, is a discussion about whether people giving
away Oracle related products are spammers. I say no. Of which several of them are people that have previously spammed this group and not one of which is a regular contributor that has helped others when they've had questions.
I'll grant you you've answered lots more question than I have, and some
of mine, for which I thank you, but I have answered questions when I
knew the answers. I'm not as knowledgeable in Oracle as, say, you or
Sybrand and if I don't know I figure the questioner is better off if I
don't just give a wild-a**ed guess. c.d.o.marketplace gets, at most, 2-3 posts per day. If you looked every day the inconvenience would be less than 5 seconds. Is your life that full of panic that you can't invest 5 seconds to fight spam?
It's primarily the long "you're a spammer" "no I'm not discussions" that
annoy me. So how about a free tool from Microsoft to migrate from Oracle to SQL Server ... would that be appropriate? How about one from IBM?
If it were free, and posted about 1/month its no big deal. I'm not
likely to use it, but some folks here might find it useful. If they do
one those every day deals (like the guy with the report writer was doing
a while back) that's spamming, free or no.

[jhking]

c.d.o.announce (or your solution) would be far better than what we have
now. Not having a server to host it on, though, I'm not in a position
to petition to create such a group.
Norman Dunbar wrote:
So in summary, CDOM.jobs, CDOM.freestuff, CDOM.stuff are required. This is not a marketplace. And Spammers can go fcuk themselves :o) (Apologies to the real FCUK company for blatant misuse of their advertising campaign !) Cheers from round the side of the firewall. Norman. Remove the obvious bit to reply to my email address.

[DBA Infopower Support]

Hello David,
The only condition is that the announced tool stays free forever. And how, pray tell, do you propose we enforce that? IMHO what's actually needed is comp.databases.oracle.announce .... David Rolfe

I agree that announce/freetools group can be a great idea. Question is if,
when and how it can be implemented.

In regards to the "honesty" system - Surprisingly most of the people are
honest - best proof of this is EBAY's success.

And if someone presents "free" tool and would try to sell it later - to
whom?

He would ruin his face in your eyes and in eyes of thousands DBAs who are
using this forum. Not just for this tool. For all tools he would produce in
the future.

Please, let me know if this make sense.

Regards,

Ron
Support
DBA Infopower LLC
http://www.dba-ip.com




"D Rolfe" <dwrolfeFRUITBAT@orindasoft.com> wrote in message
news:1PQBc.2828$Z14.3489@news.indigo.ie... Ron wrote: Dear colleague DBAs, On the other side, by constantly flaming new tool messages (including open-source developments) the forum alienates the developer's community. This community has huge potential in creating free database tools that
would be very suited to practical DBA needs - due to the fact that they would
grow based on feedback from real DBAs on this forum. I think that a reasonable approach to this situation is to open the
forum to announcements of free database tools (from both individual developers
and companies). The problem is that many of the so called 'free' tools are in fact being developed for the market by people who intend to go commercial at a future date. I can think of an obvious recent example of this. Why should such people be permitted to advertise when companies that are honest enough to be up front about the non-free nature of their products aren't? I work for a company that makes no bones about the fact that our stuff isn't free, hasn't been free and isn't going to be free for the simple reason it cost time and money to develop and test. We limit our USENET marketing to the marketplace forum because that's what most people are expecting us to do and we're more interested in seeding google groups than a response over the next couple of days. The only condition is that the announced tool stays free forever. And how, pray tell, do you propose we enforce that? IMHO what's actually needed is comp.databases.oracle.announce .... David Rolfe

[DBA Infopower Support]

Hello Daniel,

In regards to my "spammer" record - If anyone cares (I do) he may check my
"forum" numbers - I answered almost 400 technical topics and suggested free
tool to forum (almost 2000 DBAs downloaded it).

In regards to cdom:

I imagine workflow of the free tool as below:

A) Author of the tool places announcement - TOOL X, does this and that
for DBA, free forever, available at www.dba_x.com

B) (Considering no SPAM flames are created) -

1) No interest in tool - No reaction at all or author would
get some feedback what would make tool useful for DBAs - which is a great
thing

2) Tool is good for a number of DBAs - technical questions,
suggestions and requests for the new features will follow, community would
get a great free tool

In this workflow there is no need to use cdom. My question to you - why
use cdom?

I publish CDOM charter below. Posting information on free tools in cdom is
simply wrong! It is for jobs and commercial services only.

Please, let me know if anything here is not logical.

Regards,

Ron
Support
DBA Infopower LLC
http://www.dba-ip.com

Rational and Charter for c.d.o.marketplace
CHARTER: comp.databases.oracle.marketplace
Comp.databases.oracle.marketplace is a news group provided for commercially
oriented topics of interest to people using Oracle software. This group
includes but is not limited to articles covering the following topics:

a.. jobs available
b.. positions wanted
c.. services offered
d.. software or hardware wanted or available for sale
e.. books and other literature available
f.. announcements of new products

Posting jobs available to any other comp.databases.oracle newsgroups should
be avoided.

RATIONALE: comp.databases.oracle.marketplace
This news group should provide a specific place for those interested in the
Oracle-related job market, as well as any other Oracle- related products and
services for sale or wanted. Creation of this group will provide relief to
the many readers of the news group who are annoyed by the large number of
commercial advertisement postings.


HISTORY: comp.databases.oracle.marketplace
This newsgroup was created after it passed its vote for creation by 221:31
as reported in news.announce.newgroups on 5 Oct 1996. This group was created
on October 10, 1996.


STATUS: Open, Unmoderated





"Daniel Morgan" <damorgan@x.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:1087885975.435670@yasure... Ron wrote: Hello jhking, I disagree with Daniel as well on his opinion that c.d.o.marketplace
is a proper place to write about and discuss free database tools. But rather jumping myself (and since I already disclose my rationales)
I think what we need to here more opinions from the forum. Regards, Ron As a well known spammer I am not surprised. But still you refuse to address the question of why posting to c.d.o.marketplace is an imposition on you or anyone else. Swirm as you might I will keep bringing you back to that question until you address it directly. -- Daniel Morgan http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Jeroen van den Broek]

"Daniel Morgan" <damorgan@x.washington.edu> schreef in bericht
news:1087912728.412146@yasure... the spammers have won :-( wrote: Daniel Morgan wrote: the spammers have won :-( wrote:> Daniel Morgan wrote:>>> jhking wrote:>>>> Daniel,> I don't understand. If you agree with jhking's interpretation of> this group's charter, I did not agree with his interpretation. I still don't understand. You totally ignored all of jhking's references to (and excerpts from) this group's charter. Since you didn't refute his interpretation, that implies that you agree with it. So my question remains (unanswered): if you (and the vast majority of regulars) disagree with this group's charter, why were you not successful in getting the charter modified? Or do you simply prefer (and enjoy?) chastizing people who don't do things the way you would like them to be done? Good Luck, Avi. They have been brought up numerous times and dealt with in the c.d.o. groups. I saw no reason to rehash that which had already been dealt with. I enjoy the group as a place where members of a community, those using Oracle Corp. tools, can exchange information and help each other. I don't enjoy seeing personal greed by persons promoting an agenda taking advantage of the fact that there isn't a cop guarding the door.

Daniel,

as you only want to allow Oracle Corp. tools, why is it that the regular
posters (including yourself) do answer questions regarding TOAD, which isn't
an Oracle tool and isn't even free either?
I see your point in trying to keep out real spammers, but referring every
single post containing a reference to a non-Oracle product to c.d.o.m. will
not keep them away, imho.
-- Daniel Morgan http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Daniel Morgan]

Jeroen van den Broek wrote:
"Daniel Morgan" <damorgan@x.washington.edu> schreef in bericht news:1087912728.412146@yasure...the spammers have won :-( wrote:Daniel Morgan wrote:>the spammers have won :-( wrote:>>>>Daniel Morgan wrote:>>>>>>>jhking wrote:>>>>>>>Daniel,>>I don't understand. If you agree with jhking's interpretation of>>this group's charter,>>>I did not agree with his interpretation.I still don't understand. You totally ignored all of jhking'sreferences to (and excerpts from) this group's charter. Sinceyou didn't refute his interpretation, that implies that youagree with it. So my question remains (unanswered): if you(and the vast majority of regulars) disagree with this group'scharter, why were you not successful in getting the chartermodified? Or do you simply prefer (and enjoy?) chastizing peoplewho don't do things the way you would like them to be done?Good Luck,Avi.They have been brought up numerous times and dealt with in thec.d.o. groups. I saw no reason to rehash that which had alreadybeen dealt with.I enjoy the group as a place where members of a community, thoseusing Oracle Corp. tools, can exchange information and help eachother. I don't enjoy seeing personal greed by persons promotingan agenda taking advantage of the fact that there isn't a copguarding the door. Daniel, as you only want to allow Oracle Corp. tools, why is it that the regular posters (including yourself) do answer questions regarding TOAD, which isn't an Oracle tool and isn't even free either? I see your point in trying to keep out real spammers, but referring every single post containing a reference to a non-Oracle product to c.d.o.m. will not keep them away, imho.

I agree. But if we don't fight for something we abandon all hope.

So here's my challenge. If we open it up to ALL tool vendors then
I presume you have no objection to IBM, Microsoft, Sybase, Computer
Associates, BMC, Quest, etc. using our forum to support their products
too? Is that correct?

How about Business Objects and Crystal Reports
How about Brio and Cognos
How about ... need I go on?

You can't write a rule that says big commercial companies excluded.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[bagieta]

As we can see everyone disagrees with Daniel :)
Me too.
The only thing we can find in marketplace are job announcements.
Regards
Bagieta
I disagree with Daniel as well on his opinion that c.d.o.marketplace is
a proper place to write about and discuss free database tools.

[Charlie]

In article <1087953603.955453@yasure>, Daniel Morgan says...Jeroen van den Broek wrote: Daniel, as you only want to allow Oracle Corp. tools, why is it that the regular posters (including yourself) do answer questions regarding TOAD, which isn't an Oracle tool and isn't even free either? I see your point in trying to keep out real spammers, but referring every single post containing a reference to a non-Oracle product to c.d.o.m. will not keep them away, imho.I agree. But if we don't fight for something we abandon all hope.

Ridiculous.

"Oracle" is a company. "Oracle" is also a database product. The
"Oracle" in comp.databases.oracle.tools does not mean Oracle the
company. It means Oracle the database. That is why it is under the
comp.databases.* hierarchy. If it was Oracle the company it
won't be in the comp.databases.* heirarchy. And that means
oracle.tools does not mean tools made by Oracle the company, it
means tools made for Oracle the database.
So here's my challenge. If we open it up to ALL tool vendors thenI presume you have no objection to IBM, Microsoft, Sybase, ComputerAssociates, BMC, Quest, etc. using our forum to support their productstoo? Is that correct?

To the extent that their tools are used with Oracle, no objection. If
someone has a question about using TOAD with Oracle it is perfectly
appropriate to ask it here, and if someone from Quest wants to answer
that question what would be better? This would be a win-win for everyone
- the Oracle user community wins, Oracle the company wins, third party
companies win.
How about Business Objects and Crystal ReportsHow about Brio and CognosHow about ... need I go on?

No, you need not go on. If someone has a problem connecting Crystal
Reports to Oracle it is perfectly appropriate to ask the question here
too.
You can't write a rule that says big commercial companies excluded.

And there is no need to. Oracle is a big commercial company too, and
if someone from Oracle wants to answer questions here that's great too.

[Ed prochak]

no@spam.com wrote in message news:<cb9fg3030j8@drn.newsguy.com>... In article <1087886875.88902@yasure>, Daniel Morgan says...>But once again you have avoided, as do the spammers, directly addressing>the issue I raise. What is the harm to someone making an announcement>in c.d.o.marketplace? How is it an imposition to them?> Just because freeware is free doesn't mean a freeware author doesn't want anyone using the product.Agreed. So how does posting to c.d.o.marketplace impose a hardship onthe author. Those that want to see announcements will look there. Prove it. As others have pointed out, most people who want to learn about tools come here.

And those like me interested in announcements, look in the
..marketplace group. You assumption that .marketplace is a "blackhole"
is FALSE.

This group is for DISCUSSION of tools, not announcements.
Those that don't won't. They call that target marketing. In fact, the fact that a lot of people will benefit, and that he can make a difference, is usually the motivation for the freeware author.Who decides who will benefit from the offering of a product or service?The promoter or the purchaser/consumer? You are weighing in on the sideof letting the vendor make that decision. I am weighing in on the sideof protecting the usenet group and letting the consumers (us) make thedecision. You are "protecting the usenet group" be banning any mention here of a useful free tool that solves problems that people have mentioned here, and may be interested in?

No, he is not.> As many/most people here have acknowledged, c.d.o.marketplace is a blackhole.Really? So what you are saying is that no one here wants to viewpromotional postings? No. What I am saying is that people find it to be an unnatural distinction that they have to go somewhere else to find out about these tools. They expect to find out about them here.

I don't.If that is the case then that should be respected.When I hang up the phone on a telemarketer that does not give them theright to come knock on my door. Most people interested in tools visit the tools group, not the marketplace group.No. Most people understand that tools means Oracle tools ... notthird-party tools. Prove it. "oracle.tools" does not necessarily mean "tools made by Oracle" it means "tools for using Oracle."But lets try it your way. I will start postingthings about Informatica, Crystal Reports, Cognos, Brio, PeopleSoft,SAP, Baan, Bea, TOAD, SQL*Navigator, every product in the product lineof Computer Associates and BMC. Heck lets throw in TORA, and hundreds ofothers. After all ... they are all tools that work with Oracle.Shouldn't they get equal rights? Absolutely. You mean I should go to some other group to ask a question about using Toad with Oracle?

well if it doesn't belong in tools, then you are better off in .misc
Hey Microsoft's MS Access can be used to front-end Oracle Apps. Howabout promotions for MS Access? And SQL Server can be used to extractdata too. How about promotions for SQL Server? If someone wants to ask a question about using those products with Oracle in a capacity as a tool, this is the place to ask.

actually you almost had me, but Daniel's right, .tools is not the
place for this topic.Is that really what you want? Promotions from everyone that can spellthe word Oracle? I hope not! I don't view an question about a third-party product for Oracle as a "promotion".

yes here I actually agree with you. Then whether the question belongs
in .tools or .misc is the issue. If the marketplace group is the only outlet then there is no point spending any time writing useful, free tools.And if there is no god then there is no point in being honest and decentso lets all go on a homicidal rampage and smash David Bowie albums.Surely you don't believe what you wrote. Don't be crazy. I absolutely believe what I wrote. No one in their right mind will spend any time writing free tools if he/she is not allowed to mention it anywhere except in some marketplace group which no one reads.

Your assuption again is wrong.

And if all you want is to "mention" the free tool, then put a line in
your signature. So it is not that we are banning ALL mention of your
site/tool/whatever.
It is a waste of time. The author may give up on the idea, and the community misses out on a useful, free tool.Or the author could just post to c.d.o.marketplace and let thoseinterested tell the user community. I have already debunked that argument.

No you haven't.

Thact fact is, right now, with the job market so slow, product
announcements in .marketplace really stand out. Your message has less
competition there.Or the authors could post areference to their tool in responding to a legitimate request forhelp in a different c.d.o usenet group. I see no need to wait around.

IOW you see no need to contribute to this group other than
advertisements?Or the author could gettheir tool written up in Oracle Magazine. If the tool is big enough in scope.

Does that mean you have already been turned down?
Fact is most publishers are continually looking for new material. Now
does that mean you can get published the very next issue? No. But 3-6
months from now you could be there.Or the author could goto a user group meeting and demo the tool. On top of spending time creating the free tool he now has to do what?

he has to contribute to the community. You DID say that was the
motivation didn't you?Or the author could doa zillion other things. Heck I'll post any decent and useful toolat http://www.psoug.org and not one has ever been submitted norasked to present at a meeting. And the PSOUG web site gets a lotmore traffic than all these usenet groups combined.Sorry but I'm not buying the argument. As far as I am concernedthey are all just spammers trying to get something for nothing.Every one hoping to charge for their product when, and if, theycan. As long as the community gets something in exchange *now* it is not something for "nothing".

So "bait and switch" is an okay marketting tactic in your opinion?
Your SPAMMER colors are showing.

Ed

[Ed prochak]

jhking <jhking@airmail.net> wrote in message news:<cb9muh$oi9@library2.airnews.net>... Daniel Morgan wrote: And how do you propose we separate "it is for money today" from "it will be for money tomorrow"? I suspect you're just carping now, as I doubt that anything I say will change your mind, nevertheless: since we can't predict the future trying to police against software that might be charged for later is not practicable.
do you mean practical?

And not being able to see the future is exactly why ALL product
announcements should be in marketplace.
It would disallow book announcements and ebay offerings and most seminars. On what grounds? Isn't it inconvenient to have to look through c.d.o.marketplace for them? You asked for a rule, I suggested a rule: If its for money it goes in marketplace.

And Daniel points out that rule doesn't work in the long run. Imagine
the RED HAT scenario. After a product turns from freeware to
commercial, how do you tell the poster, "well yeah you could post last
week because your product was free, but now that it's commercial you
can't post in .tools" That seeems a sure road to spam hell to me.
Actually it does. The fact that when I attach the word spam to every attempt to do so the spammers scream so loudly indicates that they are being hurt by pointing out what they do. And we wind up with days where a substantial portion of the traffic on this group is about "yes its spam" "no it isn't". That's what really annoys me and what I'm trying to end.

Then join the consensus and simply say no to spam. Most of these
threads go long due to the spammer continually protesting their right
to post while two or more reulars reply that they are off topic. (Go
research the threads in google if you don't believe me.)
The convention nowhere I've ever been is to ignore spammers. What we are having, I think, is a discussion about whether people giving away Oracle related products are spammers. I say no.

Then you are in the wrong discussion thread. This is whether the
ANNOUNCEMENT of oracle related products is on topic in .tools group.

Discussing how to use the products (eg. threads of "how do I use X to
do Y?" would be on topic here in .tools where X is an Oracle tool, and
perhaps belong in .misc where X is a third party product). The extent
of those third party products in .tools is a subject for a different
discussion thread.
Of which several of them are people that have previously spammed this group and not one of which is a regular contributor that has helped others when they've had questions. I'll grant you you've answered lots more question than I have, and some of mine, for which I thank you, but I have answered questions when I knew the answers. I'm not as knowledgeable in Oracle as, say, you or Sybrand and if I don't know I figure the questioner is better off if I don't just give a wild-a**ed guess.
c.d.o.marketplace gets, at most, 2-3 posts per day. If you looked every day the inconvenience would be less than 5 seconds. Is your life that full of panic that you can't invest 5 seconds to fight spam? It's primarily the long "you're a spammer" "no I'm not discussions" that annoy me.

Then join us in asking the spammers, not to shut up, but just to move
their posts elsewhere.
So how about a free tool from Microsoft to migrate from Oracle to SQL Server ... would that be appropriate? How about one from IBM? If it were free, and posted about 1/month its no big deal. I'm not likely to use it, but some folks here might find it useful. If they do one those every day deals (like the guy with the report writer was doing a while back) that's spamming, free or no.

The volume might start low, but others would soon follow, pushing the
boundary. "the group allows Once a month postings, so how about once a
week? Darn still didn't get enough beta testers, so I'll try once a
day." And if a half dozen companies start doing so, we get more and
more!

Ed

[jhking]

> I agree. But if we don't fight for something we abandon all hope. So here's my challenge. If we open it up to ALL tool vendors then I presume you have no objection to IBM, Microsoft, Sybase, Computer Associates, BMC, Quest, etc. using our forum to support their products too? Is that correct? How about Business Objects and Crystal Reports How about Brio and Cognos How about ... need I go on? You can't write a rule that says big commercial companies excluded.
We're not discussing limits vs. no limits, we're discussing what the
limits should be. As far as 3rd party vendors and connections to Oracle
, sometimes this might be the best group, but if I have a VB to Oracle
question I think I'd start with the VB groups first.
If somebody from MSFT or CA answers questions related to their products
they've helped solve a poster's problem and that's a good thing. If
they want to announce FREE seminars or products, I can live with that.
If they want to come in here and sell things, that's what
c.d.o.marketplace is for (imho).

[Ed prochak]

"Ron" <support@dbainfopower.com> wrote in message news:<t92dnUGdHoFn50XdRVn-uA@comcast.com>... Hello Daniel, In regards to my "spammer" record - If anyone cares (I do) he may check my "forum" numbers - I answered almost 400 technical topics and suggested free tool to forum (almost 2000 DBAs downloaded it). In regards to cdom: I imagine workflow of the free tool as below: A) Author of the tool places announcement - TOOL X, does this and that for DBA, free forever, available at www.dba_x.com

If done in .marketplace, that's perfectly fine. B) (Considering no SPAM flames are created) - 1) No interest in tool - No reaction at all or author would get some feedback what would make tool useful for DBAs - which is a great thing

presumably the feedback you mention here is email or via the website? 2) Tool is good for a number of DBAs - technical questions, suggestions and requests for the new features will follow, community would get a great free tool

And the questions, suggestions and requests are posted in .tools or
..misc
which would follow the charter and also make others aware that the
tool is actively being used, generating more interest from those that
never go to .marketplace In this workflow there is no need to use cdom. My question to you - why use cdom?

For step 1, then there is no possibility of SPAM discussion. What's so
hard about that????? I publish CDOM charter below. Posting information on free tools in cdom is simply wrong! It is for jobs and commercial services only.

and what does the phrase:
includes but is not limited to articles covering the following topics
-------------==================------
mean to you? Read the entire charter will you please. Please, let me know if anything here is not logical.

I just did Regards, Ron Support DBA Infopower LLC http://www.dba-ip.com Rational and Charter for c.d.o.marketplace CHARTER: comp.databases.oracle.marketplace Comp.databases.oracle.marketplace is a news group provided for commercially oriented topics of interest to people using Oracle software. This group includes but is not limited to articles covering the following topics: a.. jobs available b.. positions wanted c.. services offered d.. software or hardware wanted or available for sale e.. books and other literature available f.. announcements of new products Posting jobs available to any other comp.databases.oracle newsgroups should be avoided. RATIONALE: comp.databases.oracle.marketplace This news group should provide a specific place for those interested in the Oracle-related job market, as well as any other Oracle- related products and services for sale or wanted. Creation of this group will provide relief to the many readers of the news group who are annoyed by the large number of commercial advertisement postings. HISTORY: comp.databases.oracle.marketplace This newsgroup was created after it passed its vote for creation by 221:31 as reported in news.announce.newgroups on 5 Oct 1996. This group was created on October 10, 1996. STATUS: Open, Unmoderated "Daniel Morgan" <damorgan@x.washington.edu> wrote in message news:1087885975.435670@yasure... Ron wrote: Hello jhking, I disagree with Daniel as well on his opinion that c.d.o.marketplace is a proper place to write about and discuss free database tools. But rather jumping myself (and since I already disclose my rationales) I think what we need to here more opinions from the forum. Regards, Ron As a well known spammer I am not surprised. But still you refuse to address the question of why posting to c.d.o.marketplace is an imposition on you or anyone else. Swirm as you might I will keep bringing you back to that question until you address it directly. -- Daniel Morgan


Ed Prochak

[Ed prochak]

Norman Dunbar <Norman@JUNKTHISBIT.Bountiful.Demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<a8kgd05g2hn321dg3t8nej0eeainau7s8u@4ax.com>... Ok, here's my take on the matter - as a non-spamming somewhat less than regular poster. I never look at CDO.Marketplace - it has no relevance to me in the UK. Whan I have looked at it (oops, that breaks my 'never' definition I suppose) it has been full of jobs for Oracle people in the USA. No good to me, it's not a place I ever plan to visit. I don't use tools that have been advertised here either. I may go and have a look at the web site (rare) or even download one or two of them (very rare) but if I need a toll I use TOAD or write my own. The joys of having a development past ! I do loath and detest the way that (almost ?) every poster who posts/spams (delete as appropriate) this non-marketplace NG screams abuse when asked to go elsewhere - what's the big deal. If Marketplace was full of stuff other than bleeding US jobs, I might be tempted to look there. Can someone please answer Daniel's question - what's wrong with marketplace ?

yes I'd like to see that responded to also. The closest has been that
..marketplace is not frequently visited as .tools is.

My response has been that the difference is not great enough to
warrant poluting the other oracle groups with announcements.
Unfortunately, neitherside has hard numbers to determine this eaither
way. On the other hand, what's also wrong with a new (or renamed) marketplace split into CDOM.jobs and CDOM.freestuff and even CDOM.stuff where tools of the kind mentioned can be freely advertised in the appropriate NG. It works on the Borland NGs - and if you post the wrong thing there you get seriously shat on by TeamB. The difference between CDO and Borland NGs is that the Borland ones are monitored by TeamB and no crap gets through - there's no/very little personal abuse, no religous crap, no nothing that isn't related to the NG title. They do have an off-topic NG for all the crap stuff and that can be quite 'lively' at times. Spammers will refuse to obey the rules of any NG, so I personally think that Daniel is wasting his time. On the other hand, you could have said that about the people trying to abolish slavery (they're geting there !) or about Martin Luther King etc. So in summary, CDOM.jobs, CDOM.freestuff, CDOM.stuff are required. This is not a marketplace. And Spammers can go fcuk themselves :o) (Apologies to the real FCUK company for blatant misuse of their advertising campaign !) Cheers from round the side of the firewall. Norman. Remove the obvious bit to reply to my email address.

[Ed prochak]

"Ron" <support@dbainfopower.com> wrote in message news:<TPCdnUkKzsqPjErdRVn-hw@comcast.com>... Dear colleague DBAs, I would like to open a discussion on a very painful topic (at least to a small number of forum long-timers) - the ability of DBAs and developers to freely share tools they create on comp.databases.oracle.tools forum.

I think we are really discussing a different kind of "sharing".
[] If commercial database software advertisement would be allowed, we would risk having too much noise messages that would interfere with the other information. While this concern seems to be valid, in my observation other database forums (DB2, Sybase, Mysql and SQL Server) that accept tool advertisements without any flame are not trashed, nor lose in discussion quality. So maybe the risk is not that great?

Those areas are also not as active as the oracle groups.
[]
I think that a reasonable approach to this situation is to open the forum to announcements of free database tools (from both individual developers and companies). The only condition is that the announced tool stays free forever.

How does the recent free license to beta testers fit in this scenario?


Personally I see the line being greyed to the point of being erased by
this line of reasoning.
Some would argue that free tools would be used as an indirect advertisement, but wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that whoever produces something of good value to the community would like to have a token of attention in exchange?

They have my attention in .marketplace, why insert announcements in a
discussion group?

[Ed prochak]

"Ron" <support@dbainfopower.com> wrote in message news:<CNCdnfL9r6kC6UXdRVn-sQ@comcast.com>... Hello David, The only condition is that the announced tool stays free forever. And how, pray tell, do you propose we enforce that? IMHO what's actually needed is comp.databases.oracle.announce .... David Rolfe I agree that announce/freetools group can be a great idea. Question is if, when and how it can be implemented. In regards to the "honesty" system - Surprisingly most of the people are honest - best proof of this is EBAY's success.
Funny that you tout Ebay's success while lawsuits are being brought
against them for sale of counterfeit items, in particular Tiffany
jewelry.
And if someone presents "free" tool and would try to sell it later - to whom?
The people not locked into using that tool and anxious for the next
update.
Can you say REDHAT?
He would ruin his face in your eyes and in eyes of thousands DBAs who are using this forum. Not just for this tool. For all tools he would produce in the future.

But would he care as he travels to the bank? Please, let me know if this make sense. Regards, Ron Support DBA Infopower LLC http://www.dba-ip.com
Okay, here's me letting you know: your posting DOESN'T make sense!!

Ed Prochak

[Daniel Morgan]

Ed prochak wrote:
Can someone please answer Daniel's question - what's wrong withmarketplace ? yes I'd like to see that responded to also. The closest has been that .marketplace is not frequently visited as .tools is. My response has been that the difference is not great enough to warrant poluting the other oracle groups with announcements. Unfortunately, neitherside has hard numbers to determine this eaither way.

Actually I had a survey run by my ISP of visits to c.d.o.marketplace
and they found it gets a lot of hits. The difference between it and
the other groups is that 90% of what is posted there doesn't require
a response in the group but rather a direct response to the vendor.

So the appearance of inactivity is deceiving. I personally visit it
every day.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[Sybrand Bakker]

On 23 Jun 2004 02:27:44 -0700, no@spam.com wrote:
No, you need not go on. If someone has a problem connecting CrystalReports to Oracle it is perfectly appropriate to ask the question heretoo.

Doesn't belong in .tools, belongs in .misc. Please stop trying to
redefine the charter, mr 'nospam', the spammer.


--
Sybrand Bakker, Senior Oracle DBA

[Sybrand Bakker]

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:17:39 +0200, "Bagieta"
<bagieta21@poczta.onet.pl> wrote:
As we can see everyone disagrees with Daniel :)Me too.The only thing we can find in marketplace are job announcements.RegardsBagieta I disagree with Daniel as well on his opinion that c.d.o.marketplace isa proper place to write about and discuss free database tools.

You are wrong. There are several regulars in agreement with Daniel.
Only the posters with commercials interests, the spammers and
crossposters, the people ignoring the validity of a charter, aren't


--
Sybrand Bakker, Senior Oracle DBA

[Hans Forbrich]

Bagieta wrote:
As we can see everyone disagrees with Daniel :)

Not everyone. I agree with Daniel.

Based on email ids, of those who go through these lists and take the time to
sort the questions and then respond, a significant number of active
contributors seem to agree as well.

Since my time is limited, I would really prefer the NGs limited to posts
around the technical aspect of the operation of Oracle-supplied software.
But that's just my opinion.

I fully support modifying the charter for any of these newsgroups to reflect
'modern times' and 'modern needs', or adding new newsgroups. With the
advent of Oracle EBusiness Suite and Application Server, as well as the
proliferation of specialty areas included in the database3, I could see
some of the following being created:

cdo.server.extensions (eg: Adv Queue, Workflow, Context, intermedia ...)
cdo.third-party (eg: utilities & tools)
cdo.third-party.announce

and these probably not in cdo .... using cdo for convenience:

cdo.appserver
cdo.ebusiness-suite

One thing that intrigues me - why are we NOT using the formal CFV processes
that have been accepted and firmly established to resolve this?

It almost seems like we want to play likee pre-schoolers in a sandbox.

/Hans

[Jeroen van den Broek]

"Daniel Morgan" <damorgan@x.washington.edu> schreef in bericht
news:1087953603.955453@yasure... Jeroen van den Broek wrote: "Daniel Morgan" <damorgan@x.washington.edu> schreef in bericht news:1087912728.412146@yasure...the spammers have won :-( wrote:>Daniel Morgan wrote:>>>>the spammers have won :-( wrote:>>>>>>>Daniel Morgan wrote:>>>>>>>>>>jhking wrote:>>>>>>>>>>Daniel,>>>I don't understand. If you agree with jhking's interpretation of>>>this group's charter,>>>>>>I did not agree with his interpretation.>>>I still don't understand. You totally ignored all of jhking's>references to (and excerpts from) this group's charter. Since>you didn't refute his interpretation, that implies that you>agree with it. So my question remains (unanswered): if you>(and the vast majority of regulars) disagree with this group's>charter, why were you not successful in getting the charter>modified? Or do you simply prefer (and enjoy?) chastizing people>who don't do things the way you would like them to be done?>>Good Luck,>Avi.They have been brought up numerous times and dealt with in thec.d.o. groups. I saw no reason to rehash that which had alreadybeen dealt with.I enjoy the group as a place where members of a community, thoseusing Oracle Corp. tools, can exchange information and help eachother. I don't enjoy seeing personal greed by persons promotingan agenda taking advantage of the fact that there isn't a copguarding the door. Daniel, as you only want to allow Oracle Corp. tools, why is it that the regular posters (including yourself) do answer questions regarding TOAD, which
isn't an Oracle tool and isn't even free either? I see your point in trying to keep out real spammers, but referring
every single post containing a reference to a non-Oracle product to c.d.o.m.
will not keep them away, imho. I agree. But if we don't fight for something we abandon all hope. So here's my challenge. If we open it up to ALL tool vendors then I presume you have no objection to IBM, Microsoft, Sybase, Computer Associates, BMC, Quest, etc. using our forum to support their products too? Is that correct? How about Business Objects and Crystal Reports How about Brio and Cognos How about ... need I go on? You can't write a rule that says big commercial companies excluded.

You don't have to challenge me, I actually mostly agree with you:
..misc/.server/.tools should only be used for TECHNICAL
questions/discussions, not for anouncements/advertising.
I would only choose another strategy to minimize non-complying posts:
1. First, ask such a poster politely to leave and refer to the appropriate
alternative.
2. If after that he still doesn't get it, maybe explain him once more.
3. After that, just ignore him, like you probably would with 'real' spammers
(the ones that have nothing to do with Oracle).

My other point was, that I don't see why you should distinguish between
Oracle Corp. tools and 3th party tools (that's why I asked about Toad).
As long as it is a technical question, I don't see much reason to disallow
it, but a new group c.d.o.third-party.tools would also be fine with me.

Cheers.
-- Daniel Morgan http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

[bagieta]

I totally agree.
it, but a new group c.d.o.third-party.tools would also be fine with me. Cheers.

[Ed prochak]

"Bagieta" <bagieta21@poczta.onet.pl> wrote in message news:<cbgodl$pvu$1@news.onet.pl>... I totally agree. it, but a new group c.d.o.third-party.tools would also be fine with me. Cheers.

under the current hierarchy, such questions can easily go into
comp.databases.oracle.misc

Ed