No Fun in the Apple Mac

[John Dziurlaj]

No Fun in the Apple Mac (Explicit Lyrics)

Ladies and Gentlemen of the IBM class of
I have one piece of advice for you
No matter what a dealer tells you
There is no fun in a Mac
None
Sure there's out of this world* for the Mac
But you don't want out of this world, you want fun
And there is no fun in a Mac

Don't go to LAN parties with metal detectors
Sure it feels safe outside
But what about all those Mackie's with guns
They know you ain't got one

If a dealer says it's a Athalon and looks like a Pentium, It's a 486
If a dealer says it's a Pentium and looks like a Pentium, its damn
near Commodore

Stop subscribing to crap PC mags

Microsoft couldn't have possibly committed all those anti-trust
violations, Apple did some of that shit

PC users, if you go to a movie theater, and you see a Mackie, let him
have it
Why spend the next twenty years wishing you did

PCXL, ain't nothing wrong with that

No matter what you think of what I'm saying remember this one thing
There is no fun in a Mac
No fun in the Apple Mac
No fun in the Apple Mac
No fun in the Apple Mac
No fun in the Apple Mac
No fun in the Apple Mac
No fun in the Apple Mac
There is absolutely, positively
No fun in the Apple Mac

If you see a homeless person with an iBook
He hasn't been homeless that long
A real homeless person is too hungry to spend his money on crap

If a Mackie has a pierced tongue, she'll probably suck your dick
If a Nextie has a pierced tongue, he'll problem suck your dick

Here is a horoscope for all Macs

Classic, your gonna crash
IMac, your gonna crash
LC II, your gonna crash twice
PowerMac 8100, your gonna crash
IBook, your gonna crash fuck it

No one goes to CompUSA for Macs

If you have been dating an Amiga user for four months
And haven't met any of his friends
You are not his girlfriend**

Some of the thing I said may not apply to you
Some of the things I said may offend you

But no matter who you are, you must remember this one thing.
No matter what a dealer tells you
There is no fun in a Mac
None
No fun in the Apple Mac
No fun in the Apple Mac
No fun in the Apple Mac
No fun in the Apple Mac
No fun in the Apple Mac
Can't get none, can't have none
Apple Mac
There is absolutely, positively
No fun in the Apple Mac
Say no, Say no

*Out of This World was a Interplay game made for the Mac, and
eventually other platforms. It was the first game to use primitive 3d
graphics.

**Inside Amiga Joke

[Woofbert]

In article <3df57f9c.0312250724.4697e9bb@posting.google.com>,
Dziurlaj@hotmail.com (John Dziurlaj) wrote:
Some of the thing I said may not apply to you Some of the things I said may offend you

I've learned something about (c)rap music revently. It is de riguer to
include a disclaimer like that one in every piece of (c)rap. If the
piece is misogynistic, then it must have the words to the effect of "I
ain disrespekin wimmin." In this case it's just plain mean; hence the
disclaimer.

I've come to the conclusion that (c)rap music is the resultof the
government cutting back on education and thus the demise of real music
education in schools.

--
Woofbert, Chief Rocket Surgeon, Infernosoft
Woofbert's Law on Learning Linux: When attempting to learn Linux,
study it thoroughly before you begin.

[George Graves]

In article <woofbert.spam-ECD383.19124725122003@typhoon.sonic.net>,
Woofbert <woofbert.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:
In article <3df57f9c.0312250724.4697e9bb@posting.google.com>, Dziurlaj@hotmail.com (John Dziurlaj) wrote: Some of the thing I said may not apply to you Some of the things I said may offend you I've learned something about (c)rap music revently. It is de riguer to include a disclaimer like that one in every piece of (c)rap. If the piece is misogynistic, then it must have the words to the effect of "I ain disrespekin wimmin." In this case it's just plain mean; hence the disclaimer. I've come to the conclusion that (c)rap music is the resultof the government cutting back on education and thus the demise of real music education in schools.

(C)rap "music" is the result of general societal entropy.

--
George Graves
------------------
"Knowledge is Good"
Emile Faber -Founder, Faber College

[Nashton]

George Graves wrote:
In article <woofbert.spam-ECD383.19124725122003@typhoon.sonic.net>, Woofbert <woofbert.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:In article <3df57f9c.0312250724.4697e9bb@posting.google.com>, Dziurlaj@hotmail.com (John Dziurlaj) wrote:Some of the thing I said may not apply to youSome of the things I said may offend youI've learned something about (c)rap music revently. It is de riguer toinclude a disclaimer like that one in every piece of (c)rap. If thepiece is misogynistic, then it must have the words to the effect of "Iain disrespekin wimmin." In this case it's just plain mean; hence thedisclaimer.I've come to the conclusion that (c)rap music is the resultof thegovernment cutting back on education and thus the demise of real musiceducation in schools. (C)rap "music" is the result of general societal entropy.

At the same time, there is a resurgence of country music. Two
conflicting trends...go figure.
There is some good rap out there too, IMHO. Gustatis non discutatis;)

Nicolas

[George Graves]

In article <jRVGb.19963$IF6.854640@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>,
Nashton <Nash@nospam.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:
George Graves wrote: In article <woofbert.spam-ECD383.19124725122003@typhoon.sonic.net>, Woofbert <woofbert.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:In article <3df57f9c.0312250724.4697e9bb@posting.google.com>, Dziurlaj@hotmail.com (John Dziurlaj) wrote:>Some of the thing I said may not apply to you>Some of the things I said may offend youI've learned something about (c)rap music revently. It is de riguer toinclude a disclaimer like that one in every piece of (c)rap. If thepiece is misogynistic, then it must have the words to the effect of "Iain disrespekin wimmin." In this case it's just plain mean; hence thedisclaimer.I've come to the conclusion that (c)rap music is the resultof thegovernment cutting back on education and thus the demise of real musiceducation in schools. (C)rap "music" is the result of general societal entropy. At the same time, there is a resurgence of country music. Two conflicting trends...go figure. There is some good rap out there too, IMHO. Gustatis non discutatis;)


1) I don't see country "music" as a conficting trend, but rather just
another segment of pop "culture" affected by the ever dropping standards
resulting from general cultural entropy.

2) The concept of "good rap" is dependent on your MQ (Music Quotient).
This imaginary measurement is a combination of one's age, and how much
one actually knows about real music. I.E. if one is over 40 and has even
HEARD the name Beethoven, then the idea of "good rap" is an oxymoron.

--
George Graves
------------------
"Knowledge is Good"
Emile Faber -Founder, Faber College

[david raoul derbes]

In article <gmgravesnos-271790.09002226122003@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>,
George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote:In article <jRVGb.19963$IF6.854640@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>, Nashton <Nash@nospam.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote: George Graves wrote: In article <woofbert.spam-ECD383.19124725122003@typhoon.sonic.net>, Woofbert <woofbert.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:>In article <3df57f9c.0312250724.4697e9bb@posting.google.com>,> Dziurlaj@hotmail.com (John Dziurlaj) wrote:>>>>Some of the thing I said may not apply to you>>Some of the things I said may offend you>>I've learned something about (c)rap music revently. It is de riguer to>include a disclaimer like that one in every piece of (c)rap. If the>piece is misogynistic, then it must have the words to the effect of "I>ain disrespekin wimmin." In this case it's just plain mean; hence the>disclaimer.>>I've come to the conclusion that (c)rap music is the resultof the>government cutting back on education and thus the demise of real music>education in schools. (C)rap "music" is the result of general societal entropy. At the same time, there is a resurgence of country music. Two conflicting trends...go figure. There is some good rap out there too, IMHO. Gustatis non discutatis;)

BWEET! That's "De gustibus non disputandum (est)", "about tastes there
must be no disputing", or "there's no accounting for taste".

I can't stand rap, but it seems like Marshall Mathers (aka Eminem) has
genuine talent. I haven't seen "Eight mile", but most of my students
(the vast majority of whom have very large brains) assure me that it
is well worth seeing.

David Derbes
(who is a physics teacher, but who almost became a classicist.)
--George Graves------------------"Knowledge is Good"Emile Faber -Founder, Faber College

[Daniel Packman]

In article <gmgravesnos-271790.09002226122003@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>,
George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote:

.....2) The concept of "good rap" is dependent on your MQ (Music Quotient).This imaginary measurement is a combination of one's age, and how muchone actually knows about real music. I.E. if one is over 40 and has evenHEARD the name Beethoven, then the idea of "good rap" is an oxymoron.

Hmmm. Over 40.
Beethoven?
Hmmm.... Must be referring to that Disney movie. :-)

--
Daniel Packman
NCAR/ACD
pack@ucar.edu

[George Graves]

In article <bsi0tu$93v$1@news.ucar.edu>,
pack@eos.ucar.edu (Daniel Packman) wrote:
In article <gmgravesnos-271790.09002226122003@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>, George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote: ....2) The concept of "good rap" is dependent on your MQ (Music Quotient).This imaginary measurement is a combination of one's age, and how muchone actually knows about real music. I.E. if one is over 40 and has evenHEARD the name Beethoven, then the idea of "good rap" is an oxymoron. Hmmm. Over 40. Beethoven? Hmmm.... Must be referring to that Disney movie. :-)

Preceisly! :->

--
George Graves
------------------
"Knowledge is Good"
Emile Faber -Founder, Faber College

[Nashton]

George Graves wrote:
In article <jRVGb.19963$IF6.854640@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>, Nashton <Nash@nospam.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:George Graves wrote:In article <woofbert.spam-ECD383.19124725122003@typhoon.sonic.net>, Woofbert <woofbert.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:>In article <3df57f9c.0312250724.4697e9bb@posting.google.com>,>Dziurlaj@hotmail.com (John Dziurlaj) wrote:>>>>>Some of the thing I said may not apply to you>>Some of the things I said may offend you>>I've learned something about (c)rap music revently. It is de riguer to>include a disclaimer like that one in every piece of (c)rap. If the>piece is misogynistic, then it must have the words to the effect of "I>ain disrespekin wimmin." In this case it's just plain mean; hence the>disclaimer.>>I've come to the conclusion that (c)rap music is the resultof the>government cutting back on education and thus the demise of real music>education in schools.(C)rap "music" is the result of general societal entropy.At the same time, there is a resurgence of country music. Twoconflicting trends...go figure.There is some good rap out there too, IMHO. Gustatis non discutatis;) 1) I don't see country "music" as a conficting trend, but rather just another segment of pop "culture" affected by the ever dropping standards resulting from general cultural entropy.

You are making more value judgements again. Read what you just wrote and
you'll see what I mean.
By the same token, Rock also resulted from cultural entropy in the 60s
and 70s and so did every form of music that was different from what
already existed at the time of its introduction.
2) The concept of "good rap" is dependent on your MQ (Music Quotient). This imaginary measurement is a combination of one's age, and how much one actually knows about real music. I.E. if one is over 40 and has even HEARD the name Beethoven, then the idea of "good rap" is an oxymoron.


No such thing as a MQ as it's all about taste and what people enjoy
listening to. There's a time to listen to Brahms and a time to listen to
Eminem. There's a time to play Clapton on a guitar and a time to listen
to my daughter play the drums in the basement;)
I like all music, so I reiterate, gustatis non discutatis.

Nicolas

[Nashton]

david raoul derbes wrote:
In article <gmgravesnos-271790.09002226122003@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>, George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote:In article <jRVGb.19963$IF6.854640@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>,Nashton <Nash@nospam.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:George Graves wrote:>In article <woofbert.spam-ECD383.19124725122003@typhoon.sonic.net>,> Woofbert <woofbert.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:>>>>>In article <3df57f9c.0312250724.4697e9bb@posting.google.com>,>>Dziurlaj@hotmail.com (John Dziurlaj) wrote:>>>>>>>>>Some of the thing I said may not apply to you>>>Some of the things I said may offend you>>>>I've learned something about (c)rap music revently. It is de riguer to>>include a disclaimer like that one in every piece of (c)rap. If the>>piece is misogynistic, then it must have the words to the effect of "I>>ain disrespekin wimmin." In this case it's just plain mean; hence the>>disclaimer.>>>>I've come to the conclusion that (c)rap music is the resultof the>>government cutting back on education and thus the demise of real music>>education in schools.>>>(C)rap "music" is the result of general societal entropy.>At the same time, there is a resurgence of country music. Twoconflicting trends...go figure.There is some good rap out there too, IMHO. Gustatis non discutatis;) BWEET! That's "De gustibus non disputandum (est)", "about tastes there must be no disputing", or "there's no accounting for taste". I can't stand rap, but it seems like Marshall Mathers (aka Eminem) has genuine talent. I haven't seen "Eight mile", but most of my students (the vast majority of whom have very large brains) assure me that it is well worth seeing. David Derbes (who is a physics teacher, but who almost became a classicist.)

Musica delenit bestiam feram;)

Nicolas
--George Graves------------------"Knowledge is Good"Emile Faber -Founder, Faber College

[George Graves]

In article <whqHb.20635$IF6.894934@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>,
Nashton <Nash@nospam.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:
George Graves wrote: In article <jRVGb.19963$IF6.854640@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>, Nashton <Nash@nospam.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:George Graves wrote:>In article <woofbert.spam-ECD383.19124725122003@typhoon.sonic.net>,> Woofbert <woofbert.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:>>>>>In article <3df57f9c.0312250724.4697e9bb@posting.google.com>,>>Dziurlaj@hotmail.com (John Dziurlaj) wrote:>>>>>>>>>Some of the thing I said may not apply to you>>>Some of the things I said may offend you>>>>I've learned something about (c)rap music revently. It is de riguer to>>include a disclaimer like that one in every piece of (c)rap. If the>>piece is misogynistic, then it must have the words to the effect of "I>>ain disrespekin wimmin." In this case it's just plain mean; hence the>>disclaimer.>>>>I've come to the conclusion that (c)rap music is the resultof the>>government cutting back on education and thus the demise of real music>>education in schools.>>>(C)rap "music" is the result of general societal entropy.>At the same time, there is a resurgence of country music. Twoconflicting trends...go figure.There is some good rap out there too, IMHO. Gustatis non discutatis;) 1) I don't see country "music" as a conficting trend, but rather just another segment of pop "culture" affected by the ever dropping standards resulting from general cultural entropy. You are making more value judgements again. Read what you just wrote and you'll see what I mean.

I don't have to read it again, I know it's a value judgement.
By the same token, Rock also resulted from cultural entropy in the 60s and 70s and so did every form of music that was different from what already existed at the time of its introduction.

That wasn't always the case.
2) The concept of "good rap" is dependent on your MQ (Music Quotient). This imaginary measurement is a combination of one's age, and how much one actually knows about real music. I.E. if one is over 40 and has even HEARD the name Beethoven, then the idea of "good rap" is an oxymoron.
No such thing as a MQ

How about that? It's what the phrase "imaginary measurement", that I
used above means. You are a being a champion of the obvious again.
as it's all about taste and what people enjoy listening to.

That's nice. So, it's now politically incorrect to notice that "what
people enjoy listening to" gets more simple-minded and poorer in quality
with every generation? You know, Nero fiddled while Rome burned too. Is
it also politically incorrect to wonder what's driving this systematic
lowering of people's standards?
There's a time to listen to Brahms and a time to listen to Eminem.

I agree that there is a time to listen to Brahms, and a time to listen
to something else, but when that something else is Eminem and his ilk,
you're part of the problem, not the solution. You know, I wouldn't be on
this particular soapbox if pop music IMPROVED with every generation
instead of getting worse.
There's a time to play Clapton on a guitar

OK, if you say so. Myself, I wouldn't walk across the street to hear
Eric Clapton or any rocker for that matter.
and a time to listen to my daughter play the drums in the basement;)

That I'll agree with.
I like all music,

No discriminating facility eh? :-)

so I reiterate, gustatis non discutatis.

Yrue, true, but it is a barometer of a culture's health and this one is
one sick puppy (IMHO, that is).

--
George Graves
------------------
"Knowledge is Good"
Emile Faber -Founder, Faber College

[GlennGlenn]

George Graves wrote:
In article <whqHb.20635$IF6.894934@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>, Nashton <Nash@nospam.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:George Graves wrote:In article <jRVGb.19963$IF6.854640@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>, Nashton <Nash@nospam.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:>George Graves wrote:>>>>>In article <woofbert.spam-ECD383.19124725122003@typhoon.sonic.net>,>>Woofbert <woofbert.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>In article <3df57f9c.0312250724.4697e9bb@posting.google.com>,>>>Dziurlaj@hotmail.com (John Dziurlaj) wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Some of the thing I said may not apply to you>>>>Some of the things I said may offend you>>>>>>I've learned something about (c)rap music revently. It is de riguer to>>>include a disclaimer like that one in every piece of (c)rap. If the>>>piece is misogynistic, then it must have the words to the effect of "I>>>ain disrespekin wimmin." In this case it's just plain mean; hence the>>>disclaimer.>>>>>>I've come to the conclusion that (c)rap music is the resultof the>>>government cutting back on education and thus the demise of real music>>>education in schools.>>>>>>(C)rap "music" is the result of general societal entropy.>>>>At the same time, there is a resurgence of country music. Two>conflicting trends...go figure.>There is some good rap out there too, IMHO. Gustatis non discutatis;)1) I don't see country "music" as a conficting trend, but rather justanother segment of pop "culture" affected by the ever dropping standardsresulting from general cultural entropy.You are making more value judgements again. Read what you just wrote andyou'll see what I mean. I don't have to read it again, I know it's a value judgement.By the same token, Rock also resulted from cultural entropy in the 60sand 70s and so did every form of music that was different from whatalready existed at the time of its introduction. That wasn't always the case.

In much of the contemporary commentary from the alleged purveyors of
taste about the evolutionary or revolutionary producers of music
throughout recorded history, comments about cultural degradation and
social anarchy are often trotted out. Paganini was the devil.
Stravinsky too. Elvis as well. Robert Johnson seemed to enjoy his
assoication with the devil, as had many.
2) The concept of "good rap" is dependent on your MQ (Music Quotient).This imaginary measurement is a combination of one's age, and how muchone actually knows about real music. I.E. if one is over 40 and has evenHEARD the name Beethoven, then the idea of "good rap" is an oxymoron.No such thing as a MQ How about that? It's what the phrase "imaginary measurement", that I used above means. You are a being a champion of the obvious again.

What's my MQ? I'm almost 40, love Beethoven, and think that one of this
year's coolest musical releases is by a performer called Lyrics Born.
Oh, and I think that good country exists.
as it's all about taste and what people enjoylistening to. That's nice. So, it's now politically incorrect to notice that "what people enjoy listening to" gets more simple-minded and poorer in quality with every generation? You know, Nero fiddled while Rome burned too. Is it also politically incorrect to wonder what's driving this systematic lowering of people's standards?

These days there's hifalutin' tuneage with sophisticated structures and
elevated "quality" (whatever that means) out there, and lots of people
go out and listen to it, too. I'd guess in equivalent portions to back
in the past. Remember, there seems to have always been a distinction
between the alleged "high" culture and "low" culture.

So the big question is, is the "high" culture fading? Is the "low"
culture dominant? Are these things cyclical?
There's a time to listen to Brahms and a time to listen toEminem. I agree that there is a time to listen to Brahms, and a time to listen to something else, but when that something else is Eminem and his ilk, you're part of the problem, not the solution.

Wow.
You know, I wouldn't be on this particular soapbox if pop music IMPROVED with every generation instead of getting worse.

Good pop music is always hard to find, always has been. I'd venture to
say that it does exist, that much of it *is* an improvement on its
forebears. Many current musicians are taking their cues from the
"quality" acts of the past and reprocessed them. Of course, which acts
from the past are to be considered "quality" is yet another issue.
There's a time to play Clapton on a guitar OK, if you say so. Myself, I wouldn't walk across the street to hear Eric Clapton or any rocker for that matter.

Can you fill in the blank below for clarification?

Pop music past the year ___________ has only gotten worse.
and a time to listento my daughter play the drums in the basement;) That I'll agree with.

Huzzah.
I like all music, No discriminating facility eh? :-)

From my perspective, a *very* small percentage of work in *all* genres
of music is good and worth paying attention to.
so I reiterate, gustatis non discutatis. Yrue, true, but it is a barometer of a culture's health and this one is one sick puppy (IMHO, that is).

You and I went back and forth about the health of the culture before.

[George Graves]

In article <RSoIb.3565$_e3.3117@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>,
GlennGlenn <DipthotDipthot@yahoo.yahoo.com.com> wrote:
George Graves wrote: In article <whqHb.20635$IF6.894934@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>, Nashton <Nash@nospam.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:George Graves wrote:>In article <jRVGb.19963$IF6.854640@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>,> Nashton <Nash@nospam.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:>>>>>George Graves wrote:>>>>>>>>>In article <woofbert.spam-ECD383.19124725122003@typhoon.sonic.net>,>>>Woofbert <woofbert.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>In article <3df57f9c.0312250724.4697e9bb@posting.google.com>,>>>>Dziurlaj@hotmail.com (John Dziurlaj) wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Some of the thing I said may not apply to you>>>>>Some of the things I said may offend you>>>>>>>>I've learned something about (c)rap music revently. It is de riguer to>>>>include a disclaimer like that one in every piece of (c)rap. If the>>>>piece is misogynistic, then it must have the words to the effect of "I>>>>ain disrespekin wimmin." In this case it's just plain mean; hence the>>>>disclaimer.>>>>>>>>I've come to the conclusion that (c)rap music is the resultof the>>>>government cutting back on education and thus the demise of real music>>>>education in schools.>>>>>>>>>(C)rap "music" is the result of general societal entropy.>>>>>>>At the same time, there is a resurgence of country music. Two>>conflicting trends...go figure.>>There is some good rap out there too, IMHO. Gustatis non discutatis;)>>>>1) I don't see country "music" as a conficting trend, but rather just>another segment of pop "culture" affected by the ever dropping standards>resulting from general cultural entropy.You are making more value judgements again. Read what you just wrote andyou'll see what I mean. I don't have to read it again, I know it's a value judgement.By the same token, Rock also resulted from cultural entropy in the 60sand 70s and so did every form of music that was different from whatalready existed at the time of its introduction. That wasn't always the case. In much of the contemporary commentary from the alleged purveyors of taste about the evolutionary or revolutionary producers of music throughout recorded history, comments about cultural degradation and social anarchy are often trotted out. Paganini was the devil. Stravinsky too. Elvis as well. Robert Johnson seemed to enjoy his assoication with the devil, as had many.>2) The concept of "good rap" is dependent on your MQ (Music Quotient).>This imaginary measurement is a combination of one's age, and how much>one actually knows about real music. I.E. if one is over 40 and has even>HEARD the name Beethoven, then the idea of "good rap" is an oxymoron.No such thing as a MQ How about that? It's what the phrase "imaginary measurement", that I used above means. You are a being a champion of the obvious again. What's my MQ? I'm almost 40, love Beethoven, and think that one of this year's coolest musical releases is by a performer called Lyrics Born. Oh, and I think that good country exists.

You are obviously a person of no discriminating perception. :-)as it's all about taste and what people enjoylistening to. That's nice. So, it's now politically incorrect to notice that "what people enjoy listening to" gets more simple-minded and poorer in quality with every generation? You know, Nero fiddled while Rome burned too. Is it also politically incorrect to wonder what's driving this systematic lowering of people's standards? These days there's hifalutin' tuneage with sophisticated structures and elevated "quality" (whatever that means) out there, and lots of people go out and listen to it, too. I'd guess in equivalent portions to back in the past. Remember, there seems to have always been a distinction between the alleged "high" culture and "low" culture.

That there has been. But at one time the gap wasn't as great as it is
now. Remember, Cole Porter and George Gershwin were considered "low
culture" or "tin-pan-alley" in the '30's. In the '50's a stroll through
a university dormitory would reveal classical music or jazz coming out
of the open doorways of most rooms. Today? Rap and hip-hop. as late as
the 1960's classical music accounted for as much as 10% of all records
sold. Today, it's less than 1% (source: RIAA). So don't tell me that
popular taste hasn't tumbled in the last few decades.
So the big question is, is the "high" culture fading?

Apparently.

Is the "low" culture dominant?

Also apparently.

Are these things cyclical?

Can't say.
There's a time to listen to Brahms and a time to listen toEminem. I agree that there is a time to listen to Brahms, and a time to listen to something else, but when that something else is Eminem and his ilk, you're part of the problem, not the solution. Wow. You know, I wouldn't be on this particular soapbox if pop music IMPROVED with every generation instead of getting worse. Good pop music is always hard to find, always has been. I'd venture to say that it does exist, that much of it *is* an improvement on its forebears. Many current musicians are taking their cues from the "quality" acts of the past and reprocessed them. Of course, which acts from the past are to be considered "quality" is yet another issue.

Porter? Gershwin? Victor Young? Van Heusen? These were all top
songwriters in their day, and their songs are excellent. To compare
Porter's "Night and Day", or Gershwin's "Our Love is Here to Stay" to
some doggerel rap song about "beating up whores" is to weep for the
present state of pop culture.There's a time to play Clapton on a guitar OK, if you say so. Myself, I wouldn't walk across the street to hear Eric Clapton or any rocker for that matter. Can you fill in the blank below for clarification? Pop music past the year ___________ has only gotten worse.

Hard to do that. Certianly after WWII. Probably 1955 is a good year to
start with (Bill Haley and the Comets "Rock around the Clock"). But
there were signs, even before that.and a time to listento my daughter play the drums in the basement;) That I'll agree with. Huzzah.I like all music, No discriminating facility eh? :-) From my perspective, a *very* small percentage of work in *all* genres of music is good and worth paying attention to.

I agree. Except that there is little rock or country that falls into
that category. But Classical, Opera, Jazz, Folk, Latin, film music,
Broadway, saloon singers (such as, but not confined to, Sinatra),
Bluegrass, Western, etc. all have done good stuff. so I reiterate, gustatis non discutatis. Yrue, true, but it is a barometer of a culture's health and this one is one sick puppy (IMHO, that is). You and I went back and forth about the health of the culture before.

Yeah, it's terminal.

--
George Graves
------------------
"Knowledge is Good"
Emile Faber -Founder, Faber College

[GlennGlenn]

In article <gmgravesnos-68DAC5.22383630122003@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>,
George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote:
In article <RSoIb.3565$_e3.3117@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>, GlennGlenn <DipthotDipthot@yahoo.yahoo.com.com> wrote: George Graves wrote: In article <whqHb.20635$IF6.894934@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>, Nashton <Nash@nospam.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:>George Graves wrote:>>>>In article <jRVGb.19963$IF6.854640@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>,>> Nashton <Nash@nospam.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:>>>>>>>>>George Graves wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>In article <woofbert.spam-ECD383.19124725122003@typhoon.sonic.net>,>>>>Woofbert <woofbert.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>In article <3df57f9c.0312250724.4697e9bb@posting.google.com>,>>>>>Dziurlaj@hotmail.com (John Dziurlaj) wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Some of the thing I said may not apply to you>>>>>>Some of the things I said may offend you>>>>>>>>>>I've learned something about (c)rap music revently. It is de riguer>>>>>to>>>>>include a disclaimer like that one in every piece of (c)rap. If the>>>>>piece is misogynistic, then it must have the words to the effect of>>>>>"I>>>>>ain disrespekin wimmin." In this case it's just plain mean; hence the>>>>>disclaimer.>>>>>>>>>>I've come to the conclusion that (c)rap music is the resultof the>>>>>government cutting back on education and thus the demise of real>>>>>music>>>>>education in schools.>>>>>>>>>>>>(C)rap "music" is the result of general societal entropy.>>>>>>>>>>At the same time, there is a resurgence of country music. Two>>>conflicting trends...go figure.>>>There is some good rap out there too, IMHO. Gustatis non discutatis;)>>>>>>>>1) I don't see country "music" as a conficting trend, but rather just>>another segment of pop "culture" affected by the ever dropping standards>>resulting from general cultural entropy.>>You are making more value judgements again. Read what you just wrote and>you'll see what I mean. I don't have to read it again, I know it's a value judgement.>By the same token, Rock also resulted from cultural entropy in the 60s>and 70s and so did every form of music that was different from what>already existed at the time of its introduction. That wasn't always the case. In much of the contemporary commentary from the alleged purveyors of taste about the evolutionary or revolutionary producers of music throughout recorded history, comments about cultural degradation and social anarchy are often trotted out. Paganini was the devil. Stravinsky too. Elvis as well. Robert Johnson seemed to enjoy his assoication with the devil, as had many.>>2) The concept of "good rap" is dependent on your MQ (Music Quotient).>>This imaginary measurement is a combination of one's age, and how much>>one actually knows about real music. I.E. if one is over 40 and has even>>HEARD the name Beethoven, then the idea of "good rap" is an oxymoron.>No such thing as a MQ How about that? It's what the phrase "imaginary measurement", that I used above means. You are a being a champion of the obvious again. What's my MQ? I'm almost 40, love Beethoven, and think that one of this year's coolest musical releases is by a performer called Lyrics Born. Oh, and I think that good country exists. You are obviously a person of no discriminating perception. :-)

Actually, I consider myself as having rather discriiminating taste. I
dislike somewhere around 95% of all musical output.
>as it's all about taste and what people enjoy>listening to. That's nice. So, it's now politically incorrect to notice that "what people enjoy listening to" gets more simple-minded and poorer in quality with every generation? You know, Nero fiddled while Rome burned too. Is it also politically incorrect to wonder what's driving this systematic lowering of people's standards? These days there's hifalutin' tuneage with sophisticated structures and elevated "quality" (whatever that means) out there, and lots of people go out and listen to it, too. I'd guess in equivalent portions to back in the past. Remember, there seems to have always been a distinction between the alleged "high" culture and "low" culture. That there has been. But at one time the gap wasn't as great as it is now. Remember, Cole Porter and George Gershwin were considered "low culture" or "tin-pan-alley" in the '30's.

Okay. Why see them otherwise now? I mean, they wrote good tunes, but
a lame performance can make said tunes as listenable as the weakest
contemporary pop hack of today.
In the '50's a stroll through a university dormitory would reveal classical music or jazz coming out of the open doorways of most rooms.

Well, jazz back then, from what I've heard, was the boho-counterculture
music of the era... the racy "race" or "jungle" music best relegated to
the darker parts of town. It was, ahem, "dissed" for its lurid themes
and rhythms that elicited a sexual response in the impressionable
young. It was also read as an indicator of how bad things were
getting. To hear lots of the good jazz in its earlier heyday, one had
to visit bars and houses of ill repute.
Today? Rap and hip-hop.

First a bit of vocab: rap is the music, hip-hop is a broader term for
the culture. Anyway, what appears to be happening here is similar to
what I said above, only with better marketing tie-ins from the
above-ground corporate world. No need to go to a cathouse to hear it
performed now.
as late as the 1960's classical music accounted for as much as 10% of all records sold. Today, it's less than 1% (source: RIAA). So don't tell me that popular taste hasn't tumbled in the last few decades.

Raw record sales percentages don't tell the whole story, unless one
considers the demographics of record-buyers in the whole. If the fans
of a given style of music aren't buying as many records in total as the
fans of another per capita, the numbers are skewed. Therefore, those
numbers alone don't really reveal much.
So the big question is, is the "high" culture fading? Apparently.

I'm not so sure.
Is the "low" culture dominant? Also apparently.

Perhaps it has always been so, depending on one's perspective. During
the lifetimes of the most revered composers, their careers were
supported by the patronage of the nobility, who became the tastemakers
of their time. Except of course for the poor villagers who played
their own "vulgar" (etymologically speaking, "village," or "folk")
tunes in their own homes and public houses.
Are these things cyclical? Can't say.>There's a time to listen to Brahms and a time to listen to>Eminem. I agree that there is a time to listen to Brahms, and a time to listen to something else, but when that something else is Eminem and his ilk, you're part of the problem, not the solution. Wow. You know, I wouldn't be on this particular soapbox if pop music IMPROVED with every generation instead of getting worse. Good pop music is always hard to find, always has been. I'd venture to say that it does exist, that much of it *is* an improvement on its forebears. Many current musicians are taking their cues from the "quality" acts of the past and reprocessed them. Of course, which acts from the past are to be considered "quality" is yet another issue. Porter? Gershwin? Victor Young? Van Heusen? These were all top songwriters in their day, and their songs are excellent. To compare Porter's "Night and Day", or Gershwin's "Our Love is Here to Stay" to some doggerel rap song about "beating up whores" is to weep for the present state of pop culture.

Foul. Unfair comparison. You are taking a small number of elite
song-crafters whose work has survived over generations and comparing
their work to a hypothetical rap artist of *your* choice for the
purpose of making a judgment. The fact is most rappers don't sing
about "beating up whores." The fact is that there is some rap out
there that is extremely well-made, replete with compelling and complex
rhyme schemes, jazz-worthy rhythms, and lyrical wit and sentiment. And
the same can be said of rockers and other purveyors of various styles
of "pop" music.
>There's a time to play Clapton on a guitar OK, if you say so. Myself, I wouldn't walk across the street to hear Eric Clapton or any rocker for that matter. Can you fill in the blank below for clarification? Pop music past the year ___________ has only gotten worse. Hard to do that. Certianly after WWII. Probably 1955 is a good year to start with (Bill Haley and the Comets "Rock around the Clock"). But there were signs, even before that.

I think that the change in the general "sound of the generation" had
more to do with the change in how music was produced and reproduced.
Back in the day, it was expensive and difficult to have access to
recorded music, so a "certain class of people" dominated the record
market, and the sounds one heard over the electric media reflected
their tastes.

I'd make a small wager that the prices of the media and the necessary
equipment became more reachable at the same time that certain styles of
music just somehow started to become much more apparent in the public
arena.
>and a time to listen>to my daughter play the drums in the basement;) That I'll agree with. Huzzah.>I like all music, No discriminating facility eh? :-) From my perspective, a *very* small percentage of work in *all* genres of music is good and worth paying attention to. I agree. Except that there is little rock or country that falls into that category. But Classical, Opera, Jazz, Folk, Latin, film music, Broadway, saloon singers (such as, but not confined to, Sinatra), Bluegrass, Western, etc. all have done good stuff.

I dunno. The majority of *all* of the classical, opera, jazz and so
forth that has been produced and performed has fallen through the
cracks of history, and in most cases for good reason. What remains
from those eras is what people made an effort to preserve.

The same thing has happened to rock (born of blues and jazz), country
(born of blues and folk), and even rap (born of jazz, blues, and night
club dance music). Rap (in many respects an ancient art form) as we
know it has been around more than a couple decades now, and from those
early days, only a few of the artists from the dawn of the genre
continue to receive requests in clubs and radio stations. And none of
them are about beating up whores. What's more, the songs endure
because they are lots of fun to listen to. I remember a night just a
couple years ago on the Santa Monica Pier when Grandmaster Flash and
Furious Five, along with the Sugarhill Gang, broke into "Rappers
Delite." There must have been three generations of people experiencing
a transcendent form of euphoria all at once, and not a booty on that
pier was still.
so I reiterate, gustatis non discutatis. Yrue, true, but it is a barometer of a culture's health and this one is one sick puppy (IMHO, that is). You and I went back and forth about the health of the culture before. Yeah, it's terminal.

Such has been said by cultural observers for millenia now. I just
don't see pop music as a reliable marker about the state of society.
There are more direct signs that might really give a clue as to what's
going on: violence, crime, poverty, etc. You been keeping an eye on
these? Or do you prefer just to scoff at loud, angry young men
shouting in rhythm to aggressive beats?

--
--GlennGlenn--aa#825--
--dipthotdipthot@yahoo.yahoo.com.com--
--Lost & seeing double somewhere in Hollywood, CA--

[George Graves]

In article <010120042336394053%dipthotdipthot@yahoo.yahoo.com.com>,
GlennGlenn <dipthotdipthot@yahoo.yahoo.com.com> wrote:
In article <gmgravesnos-68DAC5.22383630122003@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>, George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote: In article <RSoIb.3565$_e3.3117@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>, GlennGlenn <DipthotDipthot@yahoo.yahoo.com.com> wrote: George Graves wrote: > In article <whqHb.20635$IF6.894934@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>, > Nashton <Nash@nospam.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote: > > >>George Graves wrote: >> >> >>>In article <jRVGb.19963$IF6.854640@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>, >>> Nashton <Nash@nospam.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>George Graves wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>In article <woofbert.spam-ECD383.19124725122003@typhoon.sonic.net>, >>>>>Woofbert <woofbert.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>In article <3df57f9c.0312250724.4697e9bb@posting.google.com>, >>>>>>Dziurlaj@hotmail.com (John Dziurlaj) wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Some of the thing I said may not apply to you >>>>>>>Some of the things I said may offend you >>>>>> >>>>>>I've learned something about (c)rap music revently. It is de riguer >>>>>>to >>>>>>include a disclaimer like that one in every piece of (c)rap. If the >>>>>>piece is misogynistic, then it must have the words to the effect of >>>>>>"I >>>>>>ain disrespekin wimmin." In this case it's just plain mean; hence >>>>>>the >>>>>>disclaimer. >>>>>> >>>>>>I've come to the conclusion that (c)rap music is the resultof the >>>>>>government cutting back on education and thus the demise of real >>>>>>music >>>>>>education in schools. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>(C)rap "music" is the result of general societal entropy. >>>>> >>>> >>>>At the same time, there is a resurgence of country music. Two >>>>conflicting trends...go figure. >>>>There is some good rap out there too, IMHO. Gustatis non discutatis;) >>> >>> >>> >>>1) I don't see country "music" as a conficting trend, but rather just >>>another segment of pop "culture" affected by the ever dropping >>>standards >>>resulting from general cultural entropy. >> >>You are making more value judgements again. Read what you just wrote >>and >>you'll see what I mean. > > > I don't have to read it again, I know it's a value judgement. > > >>By the same token, Rock also resulted from cultural entropy in the 60s >>and 70s and so did every form of music that was different from what >>already existed at the time of its introduction. > > > That wasn't always the case. In much of the contemporary commentary from the alleged purveyors of taste about the evolutionary or revolutionary producers of music throughout recorded history, comments about cultural degradation and social anarchy are often trotted out. Paganini was the devil. Stravinsky too. Elvis as well. Robert Johnson seemed to enjoy his assoication with the devil, as had many. >>>2) The concept of "good rap" is dependent on your MQ (Music Quotient). >>>This imaginary measurement is a combination of one's age, and how much >>>one actually knows about real music. I.E. if one is over 40 and has >>>even >>>HEARD the name Beethoven, then the idea of "good rap" is an oxymoron. > > >>No such thing as a MQ > > > How about that? It's what the phrase "imaginary measurement", that I > used above means. You are a being a champion of the obvious again. What's my MQ? I'm almost 40, love Beethoven, and think that one of this year's coolest musical releases is by a performer called Lyrics Born. Oh, and I think that good country exists. You are obviously a person of no discriminating perception. :-) Actually, I consider myself as having rather discriiminating taste. I dislike somewhere around 95% of all musical output. >>as it's all about taste and what people enjoy >>listening to. > > > That's nice. So, it's now politically incorrect to notice that "what > people enjoy listening to" gets more simple-minded and poorer in > quality > with every generation? You know, Nero fiddled while Rome burned too. Is > it also politically incorrect to wonder what's driving this systematic > lowering of people's standards? These days there's hifalutin' tuneage with sophisticated structures and elevated "quality" (whatever that means) out there, and lots of people go out and listen to it, too. I'd guess in equivalent portions to back in the past. Remember, there seems to have always been a distinction between the alleged "high" culture and "low" culture. That there has been. But at one time the gap wasn't as great as it is now. Remember, Cole Porter and George Gershwin were considered "low culture" or "tin-pan-alley" in the '30's. Okay. Why see them otherwise now? I mean, they wrote good tunes, but a lame performance can make said tunes as listenable as the weakest contemporary pop hack of today. In the '50's a stroll through a university dormitory would reveal classical music or jazz coming out of the open doorways of most rooms. Well, jazz back then, from what I've heard, was the boho-counterculture music of the era... the racy "race" or "jungle" music best relegated to the darker parts of town. It was, ahem, "dissed" for its lurid themes and rhythms that elicited a sexual response in the impressionable young. It was also read as an indicator of how bad things were getting. To hear lots of the good jazz in its earlier heyday, one had to visit bars and houses of ill repute. Today? Rap and hip-hop. First a bit of vocab: rap is the music, hip-hop is a broader term for the culture. Anyway, what appears to be happening here is similar to what I said above, only with better marketing tie-ins from the above-ground corporate world. No need to go to a cathouse to hear it performed now. as late as the 1960's classical music accounted for as much as 10% of all records sold. Today, it's less than 1% (source: RIAA). So don't tell me that popular taste hasn't tumbled in the last few decades. Raw record sales percentages don't tell the whole story, unless one considers the demographics of record-buyers in the whole. If the fans of a given style of music aren't buying as many records in total as the fans of another per capita, the numbers are skewed. Therefore, those numbers alone don't really reveal much. So the big question is, is the "high" culture fading? Apparently. I'm not so sure. Is the "low" culture dominant? Also apparently. Perhaps it has always been so, depending on one's perspective. During the lifetimes of the most revered composers, their careers were supported by the patronage of the nobility, who became the tastemakers of their time. Except of course for the poor villagers who played their own "vulgar" (etymologically speaking, "village," or "folk") tunes in their own homes and public houses. Are these things cyclical? Can't say. >>There's a time to listen to Brahms and a time to listen to >>Eminem. > > > I agree that there is a time to listen to Brahms, and a time to listen > to something else, but when that something else is Eminem and his ilk, > you're part of the problem, not the solution. Wow. > You know, I wouldn't be on > this particular soapbox if pop music IMPROVED with every generation > instead of getting worse. Good pop music is always hard to find, always has been. I'd venture to say that it does exist, that much of it *is* an improvement on its forebears. Many current musicians are taking their cues from the "quality" acts of the past and reprocessed them. Of course, which acts from the past are to be considered "quality" is yet another issue. Porter? Gershwin? Victor Young? Van Heusen? These were all top songwriters in their day, and their songs are excellent. To compare Porter's "Night and Day", or Gershwin's "Our Love is Here to Stay" to some doggerel rap song about "beating up whores" is to weep for the present state of pop culture. Foul. Unfair comparison. You are taking a small number of elite song-crafters whose work has survived over generations and comparing their work to a hypothetical rap artist of *your* choice for the purpose of making a judgment. The fact is most rappers don't sing about "beating up whores." The fact is that there is some rap out there that is extremely well-made, replete with compelling and complex rhyme schemes, jazz-worthy rhythms, and lyrical wit and sentiment. And the same can be said of rockers and other purveyors of various styles of "pop" music. >>There's a time to play Clapton on a guitar > > > OK, if you say so. Myself, I wouldn't walk across the street to hear > Eric Clapton or any rocker for that matter. Can you fill in the blank below for clarification? Pop music past the year ___________ has only gotten worse. Hard to do that. Certianly after WWII. Probably 1955 is a good year to start with (Bill Haley and the Comets "Rock around the Clock"). But there were signs, even before that. I think that the change in the general "sound of the generation" had more to do with the change in how music was produced and reproduced. Back in the day, it was expensive and difficult to have access to recorded music, so a "certain class of people" dominated the record market, and the sounds one heard over the electric media reflected their tastes. I'd make a small wager that the prices of the media and the necessary equipment became more reachable at the same time that certain styles of music just somehow started to become much more apparent in the public arena. >>and a time to listen >>to my daughter play the drums in the basement;) > > > That I'll agree with. Huzzah. >>I like all music, > > > No discriminating facility eh? :-) From my perspective, a *very* small percentage of work in *all* genres of music is good and worth paying attention to. I agree. Except that there is little rock or country that falls into that category. But Classical, Opera, Jazz, Folk, Latin, film music, Broadway, saloon singers (such as, but not confined to, Sinatra), Bluegrass, Western, etc. all have done good stuff. I dunno. The majority of *all* of the classical, opera, jazz and so forth that has been produced and performed has fallen through the cracks of history, and in most cases for good reason. What remains from those eras is what people made an effort to preserve. The same thing has happened to rock (born of blues and jazz), country (born of blues and folk), and even rap (born of jazz, blues, and night club dance music). Rap (in many respects an ancient art form) as we know it has been around more than a couple decades now, and from those early days, only a few of the artists from the dawn of the genre continue to receive requests in clubs and radio stations. And none of them are about beating up whores. What's more, the songs endure because they are lots of fun to listen to. I remember a night just a couple years ago on the Santa Monica Pier when Grandmaster Flash and Furious Five, along with the Sugarhill Gang, broke into "Rappers Delite." There must have been three generations of people experiencing a transcendent form of euphoria all at once, and not a booty on that pier was still. > so I reiterate, gustatis non discutatis. > > Yrue, true, but it is a barometer of a culture's health and this one is > one sick puppy (IMHO, that is). You and I went back and forth about the health of the culture before. Yeah, it's terminal. Such has been said by cultural observers for millenia now. I just don't see pop music as a reliable marker about the state of society. There are more direct signs that might really give a clue as to what's going on: violence, crime, poverty, etc. You been keeping an eye on these? Or do you prefer just to scoff at loud, angry young men shouting in rhythm to aggressive beats?


I was in Tower Records last night asking where one might find a certain
jazz title when a woman came up to the person behind the counter in the
classical/jazz section of the store and asked if they had a certain
Vivaldi piece. The young "man" looked at her with a blank stare and
yelled out to a collegue who was stocking some bins: "Hey, Tom, you ever
hear of a group called "Vivaldi"? Like I said, the sickness is terminal.

--
George Graves
------------------
"Knowledge is Good"
Emile Faber -Founder, Faber College

[GlennGlenn]

In article <gmgravesnos-4856CD.01283602012004@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>,
George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote:
In article <010120042336394053%dipthotdipthot@yahoo.yahoo.com.com>, GlennGlenn <dipthotdipthot@yahoo.yahoo.com.com> wrote: In article <gmgravesnos-68DAC5.22383630122003@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>, George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbell.net> wrote: In article <RSoIb.3565$_e3.3117@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>, GlennGlenn <DipthotDipthot@yahoo.yahoo.com.com> wrote: > George Graves wrote: > > > In article <whqHb.20635$IF6.894934@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>, > > Nashton <Nash@nospam.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote: > > > > > >>George Graves wrote: > >> > >> > >>>In article <jRVGb.19963$IF6.854640@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>, > >>> Nashton <Nash@nospam.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>George Graves wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>In article <woofbert.spam-ECD383.19124725122003@typhoon.sonic.net>, > >>>>>Woofbert <woofbert.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>In article <3df57f9c.0312250724.4697e9bb@posting.google.com>, > >>>>>>Dziurlaj@hotmail.com (John Dziurlaj) wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>Some of the thing I said may not apply to you > >>>>>>>Some of the things I said may offend you > >>>>>> > >>>>>>I've learned something about (c)rap music revently. It is de > >>>>>>riguer > >>>>>>to > >>>>>>include a disclaimer like that one in every piece of (c)rap. If > >>>>>>the > >>>>>>piece is misogynistic, then it must have the words to the effect > >>>>>>of > >>>>>>"I > >>>>>>ain disrespekin wimmin." In this case it's just plain mean; hence > >>>>>>the > >>>>>>disclaimer. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>I've come to the conclusion that (c)rap music is the resultof the > >>>>>>government cutting back on education and thus the demise of real > >>>>>>music > >>>>>>education in schools. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>(C)rap "music" is the result of general societal entropy. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>At the same time, there is a resurgence of country music. Two > >>>>conflicting trends...go figure. > >>>>There is some good rap out there too, IMHO. Gustatis non > >>>>discutatis;) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>1) I don't see country "music" as a conficting trend, but rather > >>>just > >>>another segment of pop "culture" affected by the ever dropping > >>>standards > >>>resulting from general cultural entropy. > >> > >>You are making more value judgements again. Read what you just wrote > >>and > >>you'll see what I mean. > > > > > > I don't have to read it again, I know it's a value judgement. > > > > > >>By the same token, Rock also resulted from cultural entropy in the > >>60s > >>and 70s and so did every form of music that was different from what > >>already existed at the time of its introduction. > > > > > > That wasn't always the case. > > In much of the contemporary commentary from the alleged purveyors of > taste about the evolutionary or revolutionary producers of music > throughout recorded history, comments about cultural degradation and > social anarchy are often trotted out. Paganini was the devil. > Stravinsky too. Elvis as well. Robert Johnson seemed to enjoy his > assoication with the devil, as had many. > > >>>2) The concept of "good rap" is dependent on your MQ (Music > >>>Quotient). > >>>This imaginary measurement is a combination of one's age, and how > >>>much > >>>one actually knows about real music. I.E. if one is over 40 and has > >>>even > >>>HEARD the name Beethoven, then the idea of "good rap" is an oxymoron. > > > > > >>No such thing as a MQ > > > > > > How about that? It's what the phrase "imaginary measurement", that I > > used above means. You are a being a champion of the obvious again. > > What's my MQ? I'm almost 40, love Beethoven, and think that one of > this > year's coolest musical releases is by a performer called Lyrics Born. > Oh, and I think that good country exists. You are obviously a person of no discriminating perception. :-) Actually, I consider myself as having rather discriiminating taste. I dislike somewhere around 95% of all musical output. > >>as it's all about taste and what people enjoy > >>listening to. > > > > > > That's nice. So, it's now politically incorrect to notice that "what > > people enjoy listening to" gets more simple-minded and poorer in > > quality > > with every generation? You know, Nero fiddled while Rome burned too. > > Is > > it also politically incorrect to wonder what's driving this > > systematic > > lowering of people's standards? > > These days there's hifalutin' tuneage with sophisticated structures and > elevated "quality" (whatever that means) out there, and lots of people > go out and listen to it, too. I'd guess in equivalent portions to back > in the past. Remember, there seems to have always been a distinction > between the alleged "high" culture and "low" culture. That there has been. But at one time the gap wasn't as great as it is now. Remember, Cole Porter and George Gershwin were considered "low culture" or "tin-pan-alley" in the '30's. Okay. Why see them otherwise now? I mean, they wrote good tunes, but a lame performance can make said tunes as listenable as the weakest contemporary pop hack of today. In the '50's a stroll through a university dormitory would reveal classical music or jazz coming out of the open doorways of most rooms. Well, jazz back then, from what I've heard, was the boho-counterculture music of the era... the racy "race" or "jungle" music best relegated to the darker parts of town. It was, ahem, "dissed" for its lurid themes and rhythms that elicited a sexual response in the impressionable young. It was also read as an indicator of how bad things were getting. To hear lots of the good jazz in its earlier heyday, one had to visit bars and houses of ill repute. Today? Rap and hip-hop. First a bit of vocab: rap is the music, hip-hop is a broader term for the culture. Anyway, what appears to be happening here is similar to what I said above, only with better marketing tie-ins from the above-ground corporate world. No need to go to a cathouse to hear it performed now. as late as the 1960's classical music accounted for as much as 10% of all records sold. Today, it's less than 1% (source: RIAA). So don't tell me that popular taste hasn't tumbled in the last few decades. Raw record sales percentages don't tell the whole story, unless one considers the demographics of record-buyers in the whole. If the fans of a given style of music aren't buying as many records in total as the fans of another per capita, the numbers are skewed. Therefore, those numbers alone don't really reveal much. > So the big question is, is the "high" culture fading? Apparently. I'm not so sure. > Is the "low" > culture dominant? Also apparently. Perhaps it has always been so, depending on one's perspective. During the lifetimes of the most revered composers, their careers were supported by the patronage of the nobility, who became the tastemakers of their time. Except of course for the poor villagers who played their own "vulgar" (etymologically speaking, "village," or "folk") tunes in their own homes and public houses. Are these things cyclical? Can't say. > >>There's a time to listen to Brahms and a time to listen to > >>Eminem. > > > > > > I agree that there is a time to listen to Brahms, and a time to > > listen > > to something else, but when that something else is Eminem and his > > ilk, > > you're part of the problem, not the solution. > > Wow. > > > You know, I wouldn't be on > > this particular soapbox if pop music IMPROVED with every generation > > instead of getting worse. > > Good pop music is always hard to find, always has been. I'd venture to > say that it does exist, that much of it *is* an improvement on its > forebears. Many current musicians are taking their cues from the > "quality" acts of the past and reprocessed them. Of course, which acts > from the past are to be considered "quality" is yet another issue. Porter? Gershwin? Victor Young? Van Heusen? These were all top songwriters in their day, and their songs are excellent. To compare Porter's "Night and Day", or Gershwin's "Our Love is Here to Stay" to some doggerel rap song about "beating up whores" is to weep for the present state of pop culture. Foul. Unfair comparison. You are taking a small number of elite song-crafters whose work has survived over generations and comparing their work to a hypothetical rap artist of *your* choice for the purpose of making a judgment. The fact is most rappers don't sing about "beating up whores." The fact is that there is some rap out there that is extremely well-made, replete with compelling and complex rhyme schemes, jazz-worthy rhythms, and lyrical wit and sentiment. And the same can be said of rockers and other purveyors of various styles of "pop" music. > >>There's a time to play Clapton on a guitar > > > > > > OK, if you say so. Myself, I wouldn't walk across the street to hear > > Eric Clapton or any rocker for that matter. > > Can you fill in the blank below for clarification? > > Pop music past the year ___________ has only gotten worse. Hard to do that. Certianly after WWII. Probably 1955 is a good year to start with (Bill Haley and the Comets "Rock around the Clock"). But there were signs, even before that. I think that the change in the general "sound of the generation" had more to do with the change in how music was produced and reproduced. Back in the day, it was expensive and difficult to have access to recorded music, so a "certain class of people" dominated the record market, and the sounds one heard over the electric media reflected their tastes. I'd make a small wager that the prices of the media and the necessary equipment became more reachable at the same time that certain styles of music just somehow started to become much more apparent in the public arena. > >>and a time to listen > >>to my daughter play the drums in the basement;) > > > > > > That I'll agree with. > > Huzzah. > > >>I like all music, > > > > > > No discriminating facility eh? :-) > > From my perspective, a *very* small percentage of work in *all* genres > of music is good and worth paying attention to. I agree. Except that there is little rock or country that falls into that category. But Classical, Opera, Jazz, Folk, Latin, film music, Broadway, saloon singers (such as, but not confined to, Sinatra), Bluegrass, Western, etc. all have done good stuff. I dunno. The majority of *all* of the classical, opera, jazz and so forth that has been produced and performed has fallen through the cracks of history, and in most cases for good reason. What remains from those eras is what people made an effort to preserve. The same thing has happened to rock (born of blues and jazz), country (born of blues and folk), and even rap (born of jazz, blues, and night club dance music). Rap (in many respects an ancient art form) as we know it has been around more than a couple decades now, and from those early days, only a few of the artists from the dawn of the genre continue to receive requests in clubs and radio stations. And none of them are about beating up whores. What's more, the songs endure because they are lots of fun to listen to. I remember a night just a couple years ago on the Santa Monica Pier when Grandmaster Flash and Furious Five, along with the Sugarhill Gang, broke into "Rappers Delite." There must have been three generations of people experiencing a transcendent form of euphoria all at once, and not a booty on that pier was still. > > so I reiterate, gustatis non discutatis. > > > > Yrue, true, but it is a barometer of a culture's health and this one > > is > > one sick puppy (IMHO, that is). > > You and I went back and forth about the health of the culture before. Yeah, it's terminal. Such has been said by cultural observers for millenia now. I just don't see pop music as a reliable marker about the state of society. There are more direct signs that might really give a clue as to what's going on: violence, crime, poverty, etc. You been keeping an eye on these? Or do you prefer just to scoff at loud, angry young men shouting in rhythm to aggressive beats? I was in Tower Records last night

Ah. Tower. That's the problem. There was a time when that store
hired people who cared about music. The employees, one of whom was a
close friend of mine, enjoyed choosing what LP's got put on the
turntable, and the store was a musical adventure.

Now... not so much.
asking where one might find a certain jazz title when a woman came up to the person behind the counter in the classical/jazz section of the store and asked if they had a certain Vivaldi piece. The young "man" looked at her with a blank stare and yelled out to a collegue who was stocking some bins: "Hey, Tom, you ever hear of a group called "Vivaldi"? Like I said, the sickness is terminal.

Anecdotes can't even cure illness, much less prove points. (Sorry, bad
pun.)

--
--GlennGlenn--aa#825--
--dipthotdipthot@yahoo.yahoo.com.com--
--Lost & seeing double somewhere in Hollywood, CA--

[Duke Robillard]

Woofbert wrote:
I've come to the conclusion that (c)rap music is the resultof the government cutting back on education and thus the demise of real music education in schools.

I've come to the conclusion that statements like that are
excellent indicator of the age of the poster.

In the movie version of Goldfinger, Sean Connery's James Bond
recommends wearing earmuffs when listening to the Beatles.

When Waltzes first became popular, old people were scandalized
by them.

Duke

[Mike Dee]

Duke Robillard <duke@NOSPAMio.com> wrote in
news:kIGdnbS1Nekhj57d4p2dnA@io.com:
Woofbert wrote: I've come to the conclusion that (c)rap music is the resultof the government cutting back on education and thus the demise of real music education in schools. I've come to the conclusion that statements like that are excellent indicator of the age of the poster.

But nothing about the validity of it being (c)rap.
In the movie version of Goldfinger, Sean Connery's James Bond recommends wearing earmuffs when listening to the Beatles.

If Sean was referring to a Beatle's concert, I would have to say "sound
advice".
When Waltzes first became popular, old people were scandalized by them.

People actually touched each other while they danced! Yetch.

D.

--
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired,
signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed,
those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Dwight D. Eisenhower, April 16, 1953

[Elizabot]

Mike Dee wrote:
Duke Robillard <duke@NOSPAMio.com> wrote in news:kIGdnbS1Nekhj57d4p2dnA@io.com:Woofbert wrote:I've come to the conclusion that (c)rap music is the resultof thegovernment cutting back on education and thus the demise of real musiceducation in schools.I've come to the conclusion that statements like that areexcellent indicator of the age of the poster. But nothing about the validity of it being (c)rap.In the movie version of Goldfinger, Sean Connery's James Bondrecommends wearing earmuffs when listening to the Beatles. If Sean was referring to a Beatle's concert, I would have to say "sound advice".When Waltzes first became popular, old people were scandalizedby them. People actually touched each other while they danced! Yetch.

OH THE HORROR!

Please keep in mind that CHILDREN read this newsgroup. (Snit and John, for
example.) Thank you.

--
Snit: "Really - I have no clue." 1/4/04

[Snit]

"Elizabot" <toolittletoolate@poo.com> wrote on 1/13/04 2:22 AM:
People actually touched each other while they danced! Yetch. OH THE HORROR! Please keep in mind that CHILDREN read this newsgroup. (Snit and John, for example.) Thank you. -- Snit: "Really - I have no clue." 1/4/04
You like to claim that my pointing out your logical errors did not bother
you. Clearly it did. That amuses me.

[Elizabot]

Snit wrote: "Elizabot" <toolittletoolate@poo.com> wrote on 1/13/04 2:22 AM:People actually touched each other while they danced! Yetch.OH THE HORROR!Please keep in mind that CHILDREN read this newsgroup. (Snit and John, forexample.) Thank you.--Snit: "Really - I have no clue." 1/4/04 You like to claim that my pointing out your logical errors did not bother you. Clearly it did. That amuses me.

You like to keeping claiming that, as though it were true.

--
Snit: "Really - I have no clue." 1/4/04

[Snit]

"Elizabot" <toolittletoolate@poo.com> wrote on 1/13/04 11:01 AM:
Snit wrote: "Elizabot" <toolittletoolate@poo.com> wrote on 1/13/04 2:22 AM:> People actually touched each other while they danced! Yetch. OH THE HORROR! Please keep in mind that CHILDREN read this newsgroup. (Snit and John, for example.) Thank you. -- Snit: "Really - I have no clue." 1/4/04 You like to claim that my pointing out your logical errors did not bother you. Clearly it did. That amuses me. You like to keeping claiming that, as though it were true.

Yes, and all the support for the claim is good, too.

What support, you ask (I am sure you would like to know):

Look at your last... how many posts? You have had an out of context quote
trying to make me look bad, and in the post quoted above you again try to
make a meaningless insult against me.

If I were not getting under your skin why would you be going out of your way
to make meaningless insults.

PS: I like how in the post you quote in your sig, I am in reference to
Steve... what he says is:
I agreed with you that your evidence didn't prove ANYTHING. Now, I've got you SO scared shitless... to the point where you're afraid to make a move. You won't even define what you are calling your argument... yet you won't back away from it:) C'mon, you gutless wonder... answer the question :) LOl! Coward. Hahahahahahaha!

I notice that I have very clearly laid out my response to his claim about
lack of proof:

http://groups.google.com/groups?safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_umsgid=BC24
A016.39C8B%25snit@nospam-cableone.net&lr=&hl=en

Then he states that *I* am afraid to make a move. LOL. Isn't he claiming
to have kill filed me *again*! That's OK, he will come out of his hidey
hole when he thinks he has a new attack. I am sure it will be just as off
topic to my argument.

He also says I will not define my argument; though it has not changed *at
all* (maybe some typos corrected?)

I think the post you got your quote from says a *lot* more about your other
half than it does me...


PPS: Did you happen to read my post where I lay out the whole debate Steve
and I had. Not only does it comment on my unchanging argument, it talks
about a lot of other details in this debtate:
http://groups.google.com/groups?safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_umsgid=BC28
87DA.3A0A5%25snit@nospam-cableone.net&lr=&hl=en

It starts with "LOL, I bring up a thread asking for examples of people
"showing extreme examples of using logical fallacies, side issues, nit
picking, playing semantic games, etc." and even *you* [Steve] think of
yourself. Steve, that says a lot."

It is a good read if you missed it.

[Elizabot]

Snit wrote: "Elizabot" <toolittletoolate@poo.com> wrote on 1/13/04 11:01 AM:Snit wrote:"Elizabot" <toolittletoolate@poo.com> wrote on 1/13/04 2:22 AM:>>People actually touched each other while they danced! Yetch.>>OH THE HORROR!>>Please keep in mind that CHILDREN read this newsgroup. (Snit and John, for>example.) Thank you.>>-->Snit: "Really - I have no clue." 1/4/04>You like to claim that my pointing out your logical errors did not botheryou. Clearly it did. That amuses me.You like to keeping claiming that, as though it were true. Yes, and all the support for the claim is good, too. What support, you ask (I am sure you would like to know): Look at your last... how many posts? You have had an out of context quote trying to make me look bad, and in the post quoted above you again try to make a meaningless insult against me.

You're launching into another tirade because of my sig?
If I were not getting under your skin why would you be going out of your way to make meaningless insults.

Is that a question?

Why don't you set the proper follow-ups to limit your whining to just our newsgroup.

[snip]

--
Snit: "In your case, well, I was just childishly overreacting." 12/12/03