Apple WILL move to Intell: How long before the Apple

[Guest]

Ok so now that the CPU impediment will no longer be an ussue. How long
will it before the BIOS is clonded as well.....Personally I think we
are going to see the MAC clones rise again. We are going to see the
hardware people start reverse engineering the MAC bios and burning
their own. In any case things will get interesting.


I think the software virtualization projects will get there first (like the Atari and the Amiga did in the 80s). And I think that the DMCA will be used to beat down anyone trying to reverse-engineer the BIOS, custom mac-only chips (don't have the chip, the OS doesn't run), and/or ROM images. -Stewart "However, I hear that the Playstation HD will come with Linux" Stremler
<< 1.2.dat >>
Virtualization could very well be the answer, but I am uncertain as
to what the hardware implications are at this point. On the otherhand
multicore proessors like the cell will provide ample processing power
to overcome any latency issues.... A clean room implementation of the
bios will nullify the DCMA.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stewart Stremler" <bofh@stremler.net>
To: "Main Discussion List for KPLUG" <kplug-list@kernel-panic.org>
Subject: Re: Apple WILL move to Intell: How long before the Apple
is cloned...??
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 13:38:57 -0700
[TRIM! TRIM! TRIM!]

[Rick]

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:50:11 -0700, hizark21 wrote:
Ok so now that the CPU impediment will no longer be an ussue. How long will it before the BIOS is clonded as well.....Personally I think we are going to see the MAC clones rise again. We are going to see the hardware people start reverse engineering the MAC bios and burning their own. In any case things will get interesting.
(snip)

That is going to be a bit dicey. How will the 'cloners' get Joe Sixpack
to install OS X, since Apple's license forbids installation on non-Apple
machines. The vendors won't be able to install it.

--
Rick

[ray]

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:50:11 -0700, hizark21 wrote:
Ok so now that the CPU impediment will no longer be an ussue. How long will it before the BIOS is clonded as well.....Personally I think we are going to see the MAC clones rise again. We are going to see the hardware people start reverse engineering the MAC bios and burning their own. In any case things will get interesting. I think the software virtualization projects will get there first (like the Atari and the Amiga did in the 80s). And I think that the DMCA will be used to beat down anyone trying to reverse-engineer the BIOS, custom mac-only chips (don't have the chip, the OS doesn't run), and/or ROM images. -Stewart "However, I hear that the Playstation HD will come with Linux" Stremler << 1.2.dat >> Virtualization could very well be the answer, but I am uncertain as to what the hardware implications are at this point. On the otherhand multicore proessors like the cell will provide ample processing power to overcome any latency issues.... A clean room implementation of the bios will nullify the DCMA..... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stewart Stremler" <bofh@stremler.net> To: "Main Discussion List for KPLUG" <kplug-list@kernel-panic.org> Subject: Re: Apple WILL move to Intell: How long before the Apple is cloned...?? Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 13:38:57 -0700 [TRIM! TRIM! TRIM!]

Anyone with definitive knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong, but it
was my understanding that Apple will be using a proprietary Intel chip -
not a standard x86 cpu.

[AZ Nomad]

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 20:10:07 -0600, ray <ray@zianet.com> wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:50:11 -0700, hizark21 wrote:
Ok so now that the CPU impediment will no longer be an ussue. How long will it before the BIOS is clonded as well.....Personally I think we are going to see the MAC clones rise again. We are going to see the hardware people start reverse engineering the MAC bios and burning their own. In any case things will get interesting. I think the software virtualization projects will get there first (like the Atari and the Amiga did in the 80s). And I think that the DMCA will be used to beat down anyone trying to reverse-engineer the BIOS, custom mac-only chips (don't have the chip, the OS doesn't run), and/or ROM images. -Stewart "However, I hear that the Playstation HD will come with Linux" Stremler << 1.2.dat >> Virtualization could very well be the answer, but I am uncertain as to what the hardware implications are at this point. On the otherhand multicore proessors like the cell will provide ample processing power to overcome any latency issues.... A clean room implementation of the bios will nullify the DCMA..... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stewart Stremler" <bofh@stremler.net> To: "Main Discussion List for KPLUG" <kplug-list@kernel-panic.org> Subject: Re: Apple WILL move to Intell: How long before the Apple is cloned...?? Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 13:38:57 -0700 [TRIM! TRIM! TRIM!]
Anyone with definitive knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong, but itwas my understanding that Apple will be using a proprietary Intel chip -not a standard x86 cpu.

I've looked at a lot of press releases and have yet to see a straight answer.

[Guest]

Well installing Apple on X86 will be a minority of users at least until
Apple users realiize how much they can save............

It will be interesting to see how Apple responds............. Apple
will probably have some piece of code that looks for a signature or key
in the bios to load. Intels DRM solution will also play a role as
well...But I think the hacking community will get around this and Apple
will be forced to raise the costs of the OS sufficently to cover it's
costs...

[John Slade]

<hizark21@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118623811.735680.235480@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... Ok so now that the CPU impediment will no longer be an ussue. How long will it before the BIOS is clonded as well.....Personally I think we are going to see the MAC clones rise again. We are going to see the hardware people start reverse engineering the MAC bios and burning their own. In any case things will get interesting.

When I hear the phrase "Mac Clone" in laugh. Back when Power
Computing put out Macs, I really don't think of them as clones. It was done
with Apple's permission. To me, in the PC world, cloning is what happened to
the PC. It will probably never happen again unless Apple gets really smart.
The Mac is in it's last gasps as a hardware platform. It will probably last
a year or two as a "Mac" rather than a PC clone. If Jobs had any sense he
would start getting ready to put out an OS for the PC. That's the only way
they can really compete in the desktop home computer market.

John

[John Slade]

"Rick" <none@nomail.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.06.13.01.37.24.94573@nomail.com... On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:50:11 -0700, hizark21 wrote: Ok so now that the CPU impediment will no longer be an ussue. How long will it before the BIOS is clonded as well.....Personally I think we are going to see the MAC clones rise again. We are going to see the hardware people start reverse engineering the MAC bios and burning their own. In any case things will get interesting. (snip) That is going to be a bit dicey. How will the 'cloners' get Joe Sixpack to install OS X, since Apple's license forbids installation on non-Apple machines. The vendors won't be able to install it.

Then they will install it for free illegally.

John

[Steve Hix]

In article <1118623811.735680.235480@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
hizark21@yahoo.com wrote:
Ok so now that the CPU impediment will no longer be an ussue. How long will it before the BIOS is clonded as well.....Personally I think we are going to see the MAC clones rise again. We are going to see the hardware people start reverse engineering the MAC bios and burning their own. In any case things will get interesting.

Apple has said it won't be using Open Firmware on the intel Macs, but
it's likely they won't be using a typical BIOS, either.

Might not turn out to be all that easy to reverse engineer.

[Guest]

It's probably the most likely scenario. but I think virtualization will
be the easiest way to overcome this. But also remember that the
interface is the only reall propietary portion of OSX, since rest is
BSD....

[Rick]

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 05:03:13 +0000, John Slade wrote:
"Rick" <none@nomail.com> wrote in message news:pan.2005.06.13.01.37.24.94573@nomail.com... On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:50:11 -0700, hizark21 wrote: Ok so now that the CPU impediment will no longer be an ussue. How long will it before the BIOS is clonded as well.....Personally I think we are going to see the MAC clones rise again. We are going to see the hardware people start reverse engineering the MAC bios and burning their own. In any case things will get interesting. (snip) That is going to be a bit dicey. How will the 'cloners' get Joe Sixpack to install OS X, since Apple's license forbids installation on non-Apple machines. The vendors won't be able to install it. Then they will install it for free illegally.

That might be true. I am sure there are some a stupid as you.

--
Rick

[Rick]

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 05:02:12 +0000, John Slade wrote:
<hizark21@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1118623811.735680.235480@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... Ok so now that the CPU impediment will no longer be an ussue. How long will it before the BIOS is clonded as well.....Personally I think we are going to see the MAC clones rise again. We are going to see the hardware people start reverse engineering the MAC bios and burning their own. In any case things will get interesting. When I hear the phrase "Mac Clone" in laugh. Back when Power Computing put out Macs, I really don't think of them as clones. It was done with Apple's permission. To me, in the PC world, cloning is what happened to the PC. It will probably never happen again unless Apple gets really smart. The Mac is in it's last gasps as a hardware platform. It will probably last a year or two as a "Mac" rather than a PC clone. If Jobs had any sense he would start getting ready to put out an OS for the PC. That's the only way they can really compete in the desktop home computer market.
Gee... no one has been saying the same thing for 20 years....

--
Rick

[NashtOn]

ray wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:50:11 -0700, hizark21 wrote:Ok so now that the CPU impediment will no longer be an ussue. How longwill it before the BIOS is clonded as well.....Personally I think weare going to see the MAC clones rise again. We are going to see thehardware people start reverse engineering the MAC bios and burningtheir own. In any case things will get interesting.I think the software virtualization projects will get there first(like the Atari and the Amiga did in the 80s).And I think that the DMCA will be used to beat down anyone trying toreverse-engineer the BIOS, custom mac-only chips (don't have the chip,the OS doesn't run), and/or ROM images.-Stewart "However, I hear that the Playstation HD will come withLinux" Stremler<< 1.2.dat >>Virtualization could very well be the answer, but I am uncertain asto what the hardware implications are at this point. On the otherhandmulticore proessors like the cell will provide ample processing powerto overcome any latency issues.... A clean room implementation of thebios will nullify the DCMA.....----- Original Message -----From: "Stewart Stremler" <bofh@stremler.net>To: "Main Discussion List for KPLUG" <kplug-list@kernel-panic.org>Subject: Re: Apple WILL move to Intell: How long before the Appleis cloned...??Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 13:38:57 -0700[TRIM! TRIM! TRIM!] Anyone with definitive knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that Apple will be using a proprietary Intel chip - not a standard x86 cpu.

-Nobody knows at this point. I believe that they're keeping their
options open.

Nicolas

[NashtOn]

John Slade wrote: <hizark21@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1118623811.735680.235480@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...Ok so now that the CPU impediment will no longer be an ussue. How longwill it before the BIOS is clonded as well.....Personally I think weare going to see the MAC clones rise again. We are going to see thehardware people start reverse engineering the MAC bios and burningtheir own. In any case things will get interesting. When I hear the phrase "Mac Clone" in laugh. Back when Power Computing put out Macs, I really don't think of them as clones. It was done with Apple's permission. To me, in the PC world, cloning is what happened to the PC. It will probably never happen again unless Apple gets really smart. The Mac is in it's last gasps as a hardware platform. It will probably last a year or two as a "Mac" rather than a PC clone. If Jobs had any sense he would start getting ready to put out an OS for the PC. That's the only way they can really compete in the desktop home computer market. John

Apple will never,nor is it in a position to change its business
model,IMO. Apple has always been about religious overtones, evangelists
and milking its customers for all they've got.
Making oodles of money out of h/w is the only way they know how to do it.

Nicolas

[Liam Slider]

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 00:33:03 -0700, hizark21 wrote:
It's probably the most likely scenario. but I think virtualization will be the easiest way to overcome this. But also remember that the interface is the only reall propietary portion of OSX, since rest is BSD....

Except for the kernel, which is Mach. And except for the extensive
integration with the Cocoa framework.

I'm sure you *meant* to say "since the rest is NeXT", right?

[Rick]

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:36:06 +0000, Liam Slider wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 00:33:03 -0700, hizark21 wrote: It's probably the most likely scenario. but I think virtualization will be the easiest way to overcome this. But also remember that the interface is the only reall propietary portion of OSX, since rest is BSD.... Except for the kernel, which is Mach.

Actually its BSD/MAch, but it will still run on x86/INtel/whatever.
And except for the extensive integration with the Cocoa framework.

Which will run on x86/INtel/whatever.
I'm sure you *meant* to say "since the rest is NeXT", right?

--
Rick

[JEDIDIAH]

On 2005-06-13, ray <ray@zianet.com> wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:50:11 -0700, hizark21 wrote:
[deletia] Anyone with definitive knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that Apple will be using a proprietary Intel chip - not a standard x86 cpu.

Without standard parts, the economies of scale simply don't make
any sense. Apple might as well go to TI for their chips. The x86 Apple
can't be too proprietary. The economics of it won't work.

--
The best OS in the world is ultimately useless |||
if it is controlled by a Tramiel, Jobs or Gates. / | \

[Guest]

JEDIDIAH wrote: On 2005-06-13, ray <ray@zianet.com> wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:50:11 -0700, hizark21 wrote: [deletia] Anyone with definitive knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that Apple will be using a proprietary Intel chip - not a standard x86 cpu. Without standard parts, the economies of scale simply don't make any sense. Apple might as well go to TI for their chips. The x86 Apple can't be too proprietary. The economics of it won't work.

It is possible, not probable, that Apple could order Pentiums with
special stuff inside the LaGrande security layer. LaGrande is a new
Pentium feature for crypto and system security, NOT accessible to any
form of external debugger (short of shaving the CPU and connecting
really really small logic probes) that could, possibly, conveniently
lock OS X installs to Apple-sold CPUs.

I don't like the implications this has on the CPU upgrade market (but
perhaps this could also be done only at the chipset level), but it is
something Apple could theoretically do.

[Guest]

Dell CEO thinks different about Apple
(http://news.com.com/Dell+CEO+thinks+different+about+Apple/2100-1016_3-5749940.html?tag=nefd.top
):

This quite interesting. Apple may not license OSX to run on other x86
platforms, but I believe they will have a hard time stopping other
poeple from doing so......

"If Apple decides to open the Mac OS to others, we would be happy to
offer it to our customers,"

hil Schiller addressed the issue of running Windows on Macs, saying
there are no plans to sell or support Windows on an Intel-based Mac.
"That doesn't preclude someone from running it on a Mac. They probably
will," he said. "We won't do anything to preclude that."

"However, Schiller said the company does not plan to let people run Mac
OS X on other computer makers' hardware. "We will not allow running Mac
OS X on anything other than an Apple Mac," he said."

[JEDIDIAH]

On 2005-06-13, Rick <none@nomail.com> wrote: On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 05:03:13 +0000, John Slade wrote: "Rick" <none@nomail.com> wrote in message news:pan.2005.06.13.01.37.24.94573@nomail.com... On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:50:11 -0700, hizark21 wrote: > Ok so now that the CPU impediment will no longer be an ussue. How long > will it before the BIOS is clonded as well.....Personally I think we > are going to see the MAC clones rise again. We are going to see the > hardware people start reverse engineering the MAC bios and burning > their own. In any case things will get interesting. > (snip) That is going to be a bit dicey. How will the 'cloners' get Joe Sixpack to install OS X, since Apple's license forbids installation on non-Apple machines. The vendors won't be able to install it. Then they will install it for free illegally. That might be true. I am sure there are some a stupid as you.

Microsoft wouldn't be where it is today without that
sort of stupidity.

--

It is not true that Microsoft doesn't innovate.

They brought us the email virus.

In my Atari days, such a notion would have |||
been considered a complete absurdity. / | \