Dell sued over bait & switch advertising

[YKhan]

Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.com
http://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop

Yousuf Khan

[Robert Myers]

On 24 Feb 2005 07:04:43 -0800, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote:
Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.comhttp://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop Yousuf Khan

Martha Stewart out, Michael Dell in. ;-).

RM

[Yousuf Khan]

Robert Myers wrote: On 24 Feb 2005 07:04:43 -0800, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote:Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.comhttp://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop Yousuf Khan Martha Stewart out, Michael Dell in. ;-).

But can he turn an 8 by 12 jailcell into an ergonomic and aesthetic
tour-de-force? :-)

Yousuf Khan

[Gnu_Raiz]

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:53:43 -0500, Robert Myers wrote:
On 24 Feb 2005 07:04:43 -0800, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote:Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.comhttp://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop Yousuf Khan Martha Stewart out, Michael Dell in. ;-). RM

OK let me get this straight, out is good, in is bad!

Last I heard Martha hired a personal chef to cook for her when she gets
out, how would you like that job! Now thats a good thing! rofl.
http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/stewart%20lines%20up%20top%20chef

What ever happened to the saying, in like Flint!

I was surprised that this did not happen sooner, I also wonder how long
the product life for parts is at Dell. I mean can you still get parts for
certain models over three years old. I bet a lot of businesses are having
problems, regret their purchase.

When I am near my local University, I sometimes walk through their
computer centers, and I see lots of systems down for repairs, most are
Dells. I bet they do not like the techs/students lab assistants, to dig
into their machines,due to contract issues, other such stuff. Does Dell
still use their own funky, power supply that only work with their
hardware. I know at one time people were trying to take motherboards out
of Dells use them in their own system, but could not due to power supply
wiring issues.

Gnu_Raiz

[Tony Hill]

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:38:21 -0600, Gnu_Raiz
<Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:53:43 -0500, Robert Myers wrote: On 24 Feb 2005 07:04:43 -0800, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote:Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.comhttp://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop Yousuf Khan Martha Stewart out, Michael Dell in. ;-). RMOK let me get this straight, out is good, in is bad!Last I heard Martha hired a personal chef to cook for her when she getsout, how would you like that job! Now thats a good thing! rofl.http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/stewart%20lines%20up%20top%20chefWhat ever happened to the saying, in like Flint!I was surprised that this did not happen sooner, I also wonder how longthe product life for parts is at Dell. I mean can you still get parts forcertain models over three years old. I bet a lot of businesses are havingproblems, regret their purchase.

The problem is that the only real alternative for large business is
HPaq, and it's not like that's an improvement! I'm actually surprised
that it's JUST Dell that they're going after, since HP and Dell are
kinda reminiscent of the US government system of two parties that are
really just the same thing :>
When I am near my local University, I sometimes walk through theircomputer centers, and I see lots of systems down for repairs, most areDells. I bet they do not like the techs/students lab assistants, to diginto their machines,due to contract issues, other such stuff. Does Dellstill use their own funky, power supply that only work with theirhardware. I know at one time people were trying to take motherboards outof Dells use them in their own system, but could not due to power supplywiring issues.

Funky power supplies are pretty much the norm for big OEMs, the trick
with Dells is that they were physically identical to standard ATX
supplies but where electrically different. Made it just too tempting
for people to try swapping out the board or power supply with a
standard one that just wouldn't work. With HPaq supplies, for
example, they are still non-standard, but at least you KNOW that they
are non-standard since they won't fit into an ATX connector without
the use of a decently large hammer.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[Trinity]

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:38:21 -0600, Gnu_Raiz
<Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:
I know at one time people were trying to take motherboards outof Dells use them in their own system, but could not due to power supplywiring issues.

Some stores sell adapters that get around that issue.

[George Macdonald]

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 03:42:01 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:38:21 -0600, Gnu_Raiz<Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:53:43 -0500, Robert Myers wrote: On 24 Feb 2005 07:04:43 -0800, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote:>Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.com>http://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop>> Yousuf Khan Martha Stewart out, Michael Dell in. ;-). RMOK let me get this straight, out is good, in is bad!Last I heard Martha hired a personal chef to cook for her when she getsout, how would you like that job! Now thats a good thing! rofl.http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/stewart%20lines%20up%20top%20chefWhat ever happened to the saying, in like Flint!I was surprised that this did not happen sooner, I also wonder how longthe product life for parts is at Dell. I mean can you still get parts forcertain models over three years old. I bet a lot of businesses are havingproblems, regret their purchase.The problem is that the only real alternative for large business isHPaq, and it's not like that's an improvement! I'm actually surprisedthat it's JUST Dell that they're going after, since HP and Dell arekinda reminiscent of the US government system of two parties that arereally just the same thing :>When I am near my local University, I sometimes walk through theircomputer centers, and I see lots of systems down for repairs, most areDells. I bet they do not like the techs/students lab assistants, to diginto their machines,due to contract issues, other such stuff. Does Dellstill use their own funky, power supply that only work with theirhardware. I know at one time people were trying to take motherboards outof Dells use them in their own system, but could not due to power supplywiring issues.Funky power supplies are pretty much the norm for big OEMs, the trickwith Dells is that they were physically identical to standard ATXsupplies but where electrically different. Made it just too temptingfor people to try swapping out the board or power supply with astandard one that just wouldn't work. With HPaq supplies, forexample, they are still non-standard, but at least you KNOW that theyare non-standard since they won't fit into an ATX connector withoutthe use of a decently large hammer.

So the HPaq connector has different keying for the connector? Is this
something that HP learned from Compaq? I remember the old proprietary
keyboard conectors that Compaq used to have - what a rip-off. All the same
I'd have thought both Dell and HPaq would have the same wires with the same
power and ground connections... just in a different order. In that case a
Molex pin extractor, and a used standard connector for the case of HPaq,
would be all you'd need to rearrange things to the standard order.

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

[Felger Carbon]

"Robert Myers" <rmyers1400@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:smts11hopm8ddsjeh33ub6hpvf10okuelt@4ax.com... On 24 Feb 2005 07:04:43 -0800, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote:Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.comhttp://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_
3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop Yousuf Khan Martha Stewart out, Michael Dell in. ;-).

There are criminal trials (such as the one Martha lost), and there are
civil suits (such as the one against Dell the company, not Mike the
chairman). Nobody goes to jail for losing a civil suit. Especially
if the losing party is a company. ;-)

[Felger Carbon]

"Tony Hill" <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:camt11l4828sudqbm96a5jgud12q7flgpb@4ax.com...I was surprised that this did not happen sooner, I also wonder how
longthe product life for parts is at Dell. I mean can you still get
parts forcertain models over three years old. I bet a lot of businesses are
havingproblems, regret their purchase. The problem is that the only real alternative for large business is HPaq, and it's not like that's an improvement! I'm actually
surprised that it's JUST Dell that they're going after, since HP and Dell are kinda reminiscent of the US government system of two parties that
are really just the same thing :>

The Apple computer company is being sued in civil court (in the UK?)
for selling used parts and computers as new parts and computers. It
would appear the problem is endemic in the computer industry. If the
box has been opened, is the part/computer used??

[Alan Walpool]

>>>>> "YKhan" == YKhan <yjkhan@gmail.com> writes:

YKhan> Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.com
YKhan> http://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop

YKhan> Yousuf Khan


It was about time. My friend's son worked for dell in sales, and to
say the least dell has some very interesting sales techniques. I'm
sure other companies use them, but dell is very good at sales.

It still amazes me though that some folks believe everything sales
agent says ;-)). When they find out that have been taken for a ride,
they sue like hell ;-)).

I guess the next suite will be intel for hot chips!

Whatever.

[Robert Myers]

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:44:57 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf@jfoops.net>
wrote:
"Robert Myers" <rmyers1400@comcast.net> wrote in messagenews:smts11hopm8ddsjeh33ub6hpvf10okuelt@4ax.com... On 24 Feb 2005 07:04:43 -0800, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote:Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.comhttp://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop Yousuf Khan Martha Stewart out, Michael Dell in. ;-).There are criminal trials (such as the one Martha lost), and there arecivil suits (such as the one against Dell the company, not Mike thechairman). Nobody goes to jail for losing a civil suit. Especiallyif the losing party is a company. ;-)

I hope you aren't so precise when someone tells a joke at a party,
Felger.

In any case, I'm beginning to wonder if you and that outlaw Michael
Dell don't belong to the same club. ;-).

RM

[keith]

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:44:58 +0000, Felger Carbon wrote:
"Tony Hill" <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:camt11l4828sudqbm96a5jgud12q7flgpb@4ax.com...I was surprised that this did not happen sooner, I also wonder how longthe product life for parts is at Dell. I mean can you still get parts forcertain models over three years old. I bet a lot of businesses are havingproblems, regret their purchase. The problem is that the only real alternative for large business is HPaq, and it's not like that's an improvement! I'm actually surprised that it's JUST Dell that they're going after, since HP and Dell are kinda reminiscent of the US government system of two parties that are really just the same thing :> The Apple computer company is being sued in civil court (in the UK?) for selling used parts and computers as new parts and computers. It would appear the problem is endemic in the computer industry. If the box has been opened, is the part/computer used??

There is usually a sticker on the system or disclaimer somewhere in the
documentation something on the order of "all components in this ______ are
new or equialent to new" to get around this "problem". I've seen these
"warnings" in automobiles, even. This isn't something strange amH,vil.
....well perhaps a little bad. ;-)

--
Keith

[keith]

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:07:55 -0500, Robert Myers wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:44:57 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf@jfoops.net> wrote:"Robert Myers" <rmyers1400@comcast.net> wrote in messagenews:smts11hopm8ddsjeh33ub6hpvf10okuelt@4ax.com... On 24 Feb 2005 07:04:43 -0800, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote: >Dell sued over bait-and-switch charges | CNET News.comhttp://news.com.com/Dell+sued+over+bait-and-switch+charges/2100-1047_3-5587443.html?tag=st.pop > > Yousuf Khan Martha Stewart out, Michael Dell in. ;-).There are criminal trials (such as the one Martha lost), and there arecivil suits (such as the one against Dell the company, not Mike thechairman). Nobody goes to jail for losing a civil suit. Especiallyif the losing party is a company. ;-) I hope you aren't so precise when someone tells a joke at a party, Felger. In any case, I'm beginning to wonder if you and that outlaw Michael Dell don't belong to the same club. ;-).

Nah, Felger isn't Mike's type. Martha on the other hand...

--
Keith

[Bob Niland]

> Gnu_Raiz <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:
What ever happened to the saying, in like Flint!

Actually, "In Like Flint" was a movie title, and
was a play on words from the real cliche, which was
"In like Flynn", referring to actor Eroll Flynn,
who had a bit of a reputation with the ladies, and
later managed to avoid successful prosecution for
events involving an underaged lass and his yatch.

Apparently the expression meant "sure to get lucky"
prior to the prosecution, and morphed to "and you'll
get away with it, even if illegal" afterwards.
Any number of web sites have more detail.

None of which has anything to do with Dell, which
is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked.

--
Regards, Bob Niland mailto:name@ispname.tld
http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com
NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.

[Tony Hill]

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:26:16 -0500, George Macdonald
<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 03:42:01 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>wrote:Funky power supplies are pretty much the norm for big OEMs, the trickwith Dells is that they were physically identical to standard ATXsupplies but where electrically different. Made it just too temptingfor people to try swapping out the board or power supply with astandard one that just wouldn't work. With HPaq supplies, forexample, they are still non-standard, but at least you KNOW that theyare non-standard since they won't fit into an ATX connector withoutthe use of a decently large hammer.So the HPaq connector has different keying for the connector? Is thissomething that HP learned from Compaq? I remember the old proprietarykeyboard conectors that Compaq used to have - what a rip-off.

Proprietary keyboard connector?! The only place I've ever seen one of
those was a Packard Hell, where it has a special keyboard + mouse +
speaker/mic connector all in one. All the Compaq and HP machines I've
come across use plain old PS/2 (or sometimes USB) keyboards and mice.
Mind you, I pretty much only deal with their commercial line, so I
don't know what the deal is with the Presario systems.
All the sameI'd have thought both Dell and HPaq would have the same wires with the samepower and ground connections... just in a different order. In that case aMolex pin extractor, and a used standard connector for the case of HPaq,would be all you'd need to rearrange things to the standard order.

Of the HPaq commercial machines that I see (which is a direct
descendant of the old Compaq Deskpro/Evo line), they use all pretty
standard connectors except for the power connector. These are
definitely non-standard. Actually the new ones use one non-standard
connector for the main power but use the standard 4-pin secondary
ATX12V connector (or at least I think it's standard, though I haven't
checked the pin-out). It's not really such a big deal for these
systems though since they're mostly small form factor systems where
any other power supply just wouldn't physically fit in the case. In
the case of the few minitowers we've got, they normally use the exact
same motherboard as their corresponding SFF system, so they're kind of
stuck with the non-standard power connector.

A slightly more annoying problem with these machines is that a
standard floppy drive usually will not work. Fortunately floppies are
rarely used these days, but when they are needed, it's a bit of a PITA
to have to get a specific HPaq (or Dell) part at the rather exorbitant
prices they charge (~$40 US as I recall?)

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[Hank Oredson]

"Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:opsmtgbqy0ft8z8r@news.individual.net... Gnu_Raiz <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote: What ever happened to the saying, in like Flint! Actually, "In Like Flint" was a movie title, and was a play on words from the real cliche, which was "In like Flynn", referring to actor Eroll Flynn, who had a bit of a reputation with the ladies, and later managed to avoid successful prosecution for events involving an underaged lass and his yatch. Apparently the expression meant "sure to get lucky" prior to the prosecution, and morphed to "and you'll get away with it, even if illegal" afterwards. Any number of web sites have more detail. None of which has anything to do with Dell, which is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked.


What brand would you endorse?

Serious question, about to upgrade and will either
build my own, or buy a Dell or PowerSpec.

Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems).
Dells have been problem-free.

--

... Hank

http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli

[Alan Walpool]

>>>>> "Hank" == Hank Oredson <horedson@earthlink.net> writes:

Hank> "Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Hank> news:opsmtgbqy0ft8z8r@news.individual.net... Gnu_Raiz <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote: What ever happened to the saying, in like Flint! Actually, "In Like Flint" was a movie title, and was a play on words from the real cliche, which was "In like Flynn", referring to actor Eroll Flynn, who had a bit of a reputation with the ladies, and later managed to avoid successful prosecution for events involving an underaged lass and his yatch. Apparently the expression meant "sure to get lucky" prior to the prosecution, and morphed to "and you'll get away with it, even if illegal" afterwards. Any number of web sites have more detail. None of which has anything to do with Dell, which is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked.


Hank> What brand would you endorse?

Hank> Serious question, about to upgrade and will either build my
Hank> own, or buy a Dell or PowerSpec.

Hank> Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems). Dells
Hank> have been problem-free.

I recently purchased a dell and was very happy. If you know how to
deal with sales people dell will be fine. I actually ordered from the
net and purchased an excellent server that was loaded for 424 bucks
with tax. Unreal deal.

Good luck

[keith]

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 05:37:46 +0000, Hank Oredson wrote:
"Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:opsmtgbqy0ft8z8r@news.individual.net... Gnu_Raiz <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote: What ever happened to the saying, in like Flint! Actually, "In Like Flint" was a movie title, and was a play on words from the real cliche, which was "In like Flynn", referring to actor Eroll Flynn, who had a bit of a reputation with the ladies, and later managed to avoid successful prosecution for events involving an underaged lass and his yatch. Apparently the expression meant "sure to get lucky" prior to the prosecution, and morphed to "and you'll get away with it, even if illegal" afterwards. Any number of web sites have more detail. None of which has anything to do with Dell, which is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked. What brand would you endorse?

KeithKit
Serious question, about to upgrade and will either build my own, or buy a Dell or PowerSpec.

If you're up to it (it's not hard), build your own. No question!
Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems). Dells have been problem-free.

So you've never had to replace parts or get service?

--
Keith

[Bob Niland]

>> None of which has anything to do with Dell, which is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked.
Hank Oredson <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote: What brand would you endorse?

It entirely depends on your intended uses. For
my own work (2D-intensive), I build my own. For
neighbors with generic requirements, the MicroTels
that Wal-Mart sells (web only), are perfectly
adequate inexpensive platforms, and are supportable,
as they have both Windows and Linux drivers.
Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems). Dells have been problem-free.

The question is - when you have a problem, just
how big a problem do you have? One of the things
that has put me off Dell is their periodic forays
into needless proprietary stuff, including motherboard
power connectors.

--
Regards, Bob Niland mailto:name@ispname.tld
http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com
NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.

[Alan Walpool]

>>>>> "Bob" == Bob Niland <email4rjn@yahoo.com> writes:
None of which has anything to do with Dell, which is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked.
Hank Oredson <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote: What brand would you endorse?

Bob> It entirely depends on your intended uses. For my own work
Bob> (2D-intensive), I build my own. For neighbors with generic
Bob> requirements, the MicroTels that Wal-Mart sells (web only), are
Bob> perfectly adequate inexpensive platforms, and are supportable,
Bob> as they have both Windows and Linux drivers.
Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems). Dells have been problem-free.

Bob> The question is - when you have a problem, just how big a
Bob> problem do you have? One of the things that has put me off Dell
Bob> is their periodic forays into needless proprietary stuff,
Bob> including motherboard power connectors.

I did not mention that in my last post, but you have an excellent
point. When you purchase a Dell, HP, or some other system you better
be ready to throw it away when it breaks. I purchased a dell during an
excellent special, and will use for a special purchase. However, I do
realize if it breaks after warranty I will probably have to throw it
away. The dell I purchased definitely had some no standard parts.

For desktop computer I build my own, which is pretty easy, and get to
select your parts. Probably costs a little more, but if it breaks you
can fix it easily.

Later,

Alan

[George Macdonald]

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:27:28 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:26:16 -0500, George Macdonald<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 03:42:01 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>wrote:Funky power supplies are pretty much the norm for big OEMs, the trickwith Dells is that they were physically identical to standard ATXsupplies but where electrically different. Made it just too temptingfor people to try swapping out the board or power supply with astandard one that just wouldn't work. With HPaq supplies, forexample, they are still non-standard, but at least you KNOW that theyare non-standard since they won't fit into an ATX connector withoutthe use of a decently large hammer.So the HPaq connector has different keying for the connector? Is thissomething that HP learned from Compaq? I remember the old proprietarykeyboard conectors that Compaq used to have - what a rip-off.Proprietary keyboard connector?! The only place I've ever seen one ofthose was a Packard Hell, where it has a special keyboard + mouse +speaker/mic connector all in one. All the Compaq and HP machines I'vecome across use plain old PS/2 (or sometimes USB) keyboards and mice.Mind you, I pretty much only deal with their commercial line, so Idon't know what the deal is with the Presario systems.

Oops I just dated myself.... AGAIN! Way back, Compaq had a proprietary
keyboard connector - nothing else fit and there was no adapter - maybe
thats why people bought more than one??:-) I recall a Wyse 386 system we
got had a RJ-11 for the keyboard connector, just like their TTYs, but at
least they supplied an adapter with the system.
All the sameI'd have thought both Dell and HPaq would have the same wires with the samepower and ground connections... just in a different order. In that case aMolex pin extractor, and a used standard connector for the case of HPaq,would be all you'd need to rearrange things to the standard order.Of the HPaq commercial machines that I see (which is a directdescendant of the old Compaq Deskpro/Evo line), they use all prettystandard connectors except for the power connector. These aredefinitely non-standard. Actually the new ones use one non-standardconnector for the main power but use the standard 4-pin secondaryATX12V connector (or at least I think it's standard, though I haven'tchecked the pin-out). It's not really such a big deal for thesesystems though since they're mostly small form factor systems whereany other power supply just wouldn't physically fit in the case. Inthe case of the few minitowers we've got, they normally use the exactsame motherboard as their corresponding SFF system, so they're kind ofstuck with the non-standard power connector.A slightly more annoying problem with these machines is that astandard floppy drive usually will not work. Fortunately floppies arerarely used these days, but when they are needed, it's a bit of a PITAto have to get a specific HPaq (or Dell) part at the rather exorbitantprices they charge (~$40 US as I recall?)

So much for "industry standards" - makes DIY even more attractive.

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

[Hank Oredson]

"keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.02.27.16.17.34.729801@att.bizzzz... On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 05:37:46 +0000, Hank Oredson wrote: "Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:opsmtgbqy0ft8z8r@news.individual.net...> Gnu_Raiz <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:> What ever happened to the saying, in like Flint! Actually, "In Like Flint" was a movie title, and was a play on words from the real cliche, which was "In like Flynn", referring to actor Eroll Flynn, who had a bit of a reputation with the ladies, and later managed to avoid successful prosecution for events involving an underaged lass and his yatch. Apparently the expression meant "sure to get lucky" prior to the prosecution, and morphed to "and you'll get away with it, even if illegal" afterwards. Any number of web sites have more detail. None of which has anything to do with Dell, which is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked. What brand would you endorse? KeithKit

There are 4 or 5 HankKits made from recycled free
machines sitting in the next room :-)
Serious question, about to upgrade and will either build my own, or buy a Dell or PowerSpec. If you're up to it (it's not hard), build your own. No question!

Have built dozens.

Usually spend too much time and money doing so, compared
to a high end Dell or PowerSpec. Might do it again, since right
now Dell doesn't have what I want. The high end PowerSpec
is close, and priced just a tad under what I could do by building
one myself. Their service is good, couple of my relatives (including
my 90 year old mother) have them and are very pleased.
Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems). Dells have been problem-free. So you've never had to replace parts or get service?

Don't recall every needing to call their support staff, the machines
"just work". All are XPS systems, newest is an 8200. It's my old
T550 that needs replacement (grin).

Have replaced lots of parts in the Dells, always by choice.
Better vid, bigger disk, more ram, etc. Did lose one hard
drive and had to replace it, no big deal.

So I was just curious which brand of already built plug it
in it works machine you might endorse.

--

... Hank

http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli

[Hank Oredson]

"Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:opsmu75kmvft8z8r@news.individual.net... None of which has anything to do with Dell, which is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked. Hank Oredson <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote: What brand would you endorse? It entirely depends on your intended uses. For my own work (2D-intensive), I build my own. For neighbors with generic requirements, the MicroTels that Wal-Mart sells (web only), are perfectly adequate inexpensive platforms, and are supportable, as they have both Windows and Linux drivers. Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems). Dells have been problem-free. The question is - when you have a problem, just how big a problem do you have? One of the things that has put me off Dell is their periodic forays into needless proprietary stuff, including motherboard power connectors.


Have not lost MB or PS on a Dell yet, and I'm pretty
sure they stopped that non-standard PS nonesense

I'm looking for something more high end, won't find one
at Wal-Mart. No problem building my own, have built
dozens over the years, was just curious if there were
some particular brands folks liked.

--

... Hank

http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli

[Tony Hill]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:59:49 GMT, "Hank Oredson"
<horedson@earthlink.net> wrote:Don't recall every needing to call their support staff, the machines"just work". All are XPS systems, newest is an 8200. It's my oldT550 that needs replacement (grin).Have replaced lots of parts in the Dells, always by choice.Better vid, bigger disk, more ram, etc. Did lose one harddrive and had to replace it, no big deal.So I was just curious which brand of already built plug itin it works machine you might endorse.

If I had to chose one of the big OEMs for a home system, it would
probably be a Dell... or an Apple, but I guess they don't really
count.

Dell is at least as good as anyone else in the tier-one OEM market,
though when "anyone else" is HPaq, that isn't exactly a glowing
endorsement. You can usually find Dell systems for fairly decent
prices.

If you're willing to pay extra than you can find some good quality
systems from some more niche-market builders. Alienware is one that I
know of who at least use high quality components (I don't have any
personal experience with them, so I can't say much else about them).
Might be worth checking out their site.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[Tony Hill]

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:47:12 -0500, George Macdonald
<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:27:28 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>wrote:Proprietary keyboard connector?! The only place I've ever seen one ofthose was a Packard Hell, where it has a special keyboard + mouse +speaker/mic connector all in one. All the Compaq and HP machines I'vecome across use plain old PS/2 (or sometimes USB) keyboards and mice.Mind you, I pretty much only deal with their commercial line, so Idon't know what the deal is with the Presario systems.Oops I just dated myself.... AGAIN! Way back, Compaq had a proprietarykeyboard connector - nothing else fit and there was no adapter - maybethats why people bought more than one??:-) I recall a Wyse 386 system wegot had a RJ-11 for the keyboard connector, just like their TTYs, but atleast they supplied an adapter with the system.

In mentioning a Wyse computer I think you are REALLY dating yourself
there George! :>

Now that you mention it though, I do remember seeing some odd-ball
connectors for keyboards on a variety of computers way back in the day
(286 and 386 era mainly). Never much dealt with any of those though,
mainly since I was still in grade school at the time!
A slightly more annoying problem with these machines is that astandard floppy drive usually will not work. Fortunately floppies arerarely used these days, but when they are needed, it's a bit of a PITAto have to get a specific HPaq (or Dell) part at the rather exorbitantprices they charge (~$40 US as I recall?)So much for "industry standards" - makes DIY even more attractive.

Yup, I wouldn't think of getting an HPaq or a Dell for home use.
However for business systems where you need to support anything more
than about 10 machines they start to become REAL attractive. Having a
single source for all your driver downloads, being able to use the
same basic procedure for setting up and supporting your systems can
really help. Not to mention the fact that you can get all your
replacement parts sent overnight when one goes bad.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[George Macdonald]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:03:27 GMT, "Hank Oredson" <horedson@earthlink.net>
wrote:
"Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:opsmu75kmvft8z8r@news.individual.net...> None of which has anything to do with Dell, which> is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked. Hank Oredson <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote: What brand would you endorse? It entirely depends on your intended uses. For my own work (2D-intensive), I build my own. For neighbors with generic requirements, the MicroTels that Wal-Mart sells (web only), are perfectly adequate inexpensive platforms, and are supportable, as they have both Windows and Linux drivers. Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems). Dells have been problem-free. The question is - when you have a problem, just how big a problem do you have? One of the things that has put me off Dell is their periodic forays into needless proprietary stuff, including motherboard power connectors.Have not lost MB or PS on a Dell yet, and I'm prettysure they stopped that non-standard PS nonesense

According to what we hear in c.s.i.p.h.c they are still doing it. As for
the "lost" part, the devil is not in the replacing - diagnosing & finding
it is the real rub; having a standard part which can be swapped in is umm,
nice. Do you really want some screwdriver jockey from a 3rd party
maintenance op. monkeying with your system and all its valuable data?
I'm looking for something more high end, won't find oneat Wal-Mart. No problem building my own, have builtdozens over the years, was just curious if there weresome particular brands folks liked.

I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells
anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which
components they want/need is too much work.

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

[chrisv]

Tony Hill wrote:
Dell is at least as good as anyone else in the tier-one OEM market,though when "anyone else" is HPaq, that isn't exactly a glowingendorsement. You can usually find Dell systems for fairly decentprices.

I buy/make a lot of PC's for my job. They are put to fairly heavy use
in a wide variety of tasks (not normal desktop use). I've always
spec'ed generic machines and we built them up ourselves. A few months
ago I needed some XP machines fast, so I ordered a few Dell's.

At first, they seemed okay, and I started thinking "maybe I'll buy
more of these pre-built things and save myself some work". However,
after a few months they started to screw-up, becoming less stable,
needing reboots, re-installs, etc. The hardware is a cut below the
generic stuff I buy as well (e.g. Antec cases, Intel-brand 845- and
865-based motherboards).

Needless to say, I'm not planning on any more Dell's in the near
future... It's reinforced my long-held belief that the best PC is one
you make yourself.

[Hank Oredson]

"Tony Hill" <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:csd521h2862gbmone8s6toebu1vnc1745m@4ax.com... On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:59:49 GMT, "Hank Oredson" <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote:Don't recall every needing to call their support staff, the machines"just work". All are XPS systems, newest is an 8200. It's my oldT550 that needs replacement (grin).Have replaced lots of parts in the Dells, always by choice.Better vid, bigger disk, more ram, etc. Did lose one harddrive and had to replace it, no big deal.So I was just curious which brand of already built plug itin it works machine you might endorse. If I had to chose one of the big OEMs for a home system, it would probably be a Dell... or an Apple, but I guess they don't really count. Dell is at least as good as anyone else in the tier-one OEM market, though when "anyone else" is HPaq, that isn't exactly a glowing endorsement. You can usually find Dell systems for fairly decent prices. If you're willing to pay extra than you can find some good quality systems from some more niche-market builders. Alienware is one that I know of who at least use high quality components (I don't have any personal experience with them, so I can't say much else about them). Might be worth checking out their site.


I've looked at 4 or 5 of the "gamer style" systems builders, and am a bit
put off by things like plastic panels and blinking lights :-)

Thanks for your comments re Dell.
Have already ruled out HPaq, Sony, GQ and a few others.

--

... Hank

http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli

[Hank Oredson]

"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:f8e621d48803i68afliipa3lhkrlmsnc9q@4ax.com... Tony Hill wrote:Dell is at least as good as anyone else in the tier-one OEM market,though when "anyone else" is HPaq, that isn't exactly a glowingendorsement. You can usually find Dell systems for fairly decentprices. I buy/make a lot of PC's for my job. They are put to fairly heavy use in a wide variety of tasks (not normal desktop use). I've always spec'ed generic machines and we built them up ourselves. A few months ago I needed some XP machines fast, so I ordered a few Dell's. At first, they seemed okay, and I started thinking "maybe I'll buy more of these pre-built things and save myself some work". However, after a few months they started to screw-up, becoming less stable, needing reboots, re-installs, etc. The hardware is a cut below the generic stuff I buy as well (e.g. Antec cases, Intel-brand 845- and 865-based motherboards). Needless to say, I'm not planning on any more Dell's in the near future... It's reinforced my long-held belief that the best PC is one you make yourself.


Thanks for the comments. Our most recent Dell is from the first
of the 8200 series, and it has been stable. Have upgraded video
and hard drive, not much more to change. No experience with
their newer boxes.

--

... Hank

http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli

[Hank Oredson]

"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
news:66k5219u9uia3v4s0dho3f2nmg30cr9puo@4ax.com... On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:03:27 GMT, "Hank Oredson" <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote:"Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:opsmu75kmvft8z8r@news.individual.net...>> None of which has anything to do with Dell, which>> is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked.> Hank Oredson <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote:> What brand would you endorse? It entirely depends on your intended uses. For my own work (2D-intensive), I build my own. For neighbors with generic requirements, the MicroTels that Wal-Mart sells (web only), are perfectly adequate inexpensive platforms, and are supportable, as they have both Windows and Linux drivers.> Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems).> Dells have been problem-free. The question is - when you have a problem, just how big a problem do you have? One of the things that has put me off Dell is their periodic forays into needless proprietary stuff, including motherboard power connectors.Have not lost MB or PS on a Dell yet, and I'm prettysure they stopped that non-standard PS nonesense According to what we hear in c.s.i.p.h.c they are still doing it. As for the "lost" part, the devil is not in the replacing - diagnosing & finding it is the real rub; having a standard part which can be swapped in is umm, nice. Do you really want some screwdriver jockey from a 3rd party maintenance op. monkeying with your system and all its valuable data?

Never a problem. I do the work, or my wife does, we are both
competent with tools and test equipment.
I'm looking for something more high end, won't find oneat Wal-Mart. No problem building my own, have builtdozens over the years, was just curious if there weresome particular brands folks liked. I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which components they want/need is too much work.

The local system builders do not build machines as good as the
ones that I build :-) Points are well taken though, thank you.

--

... Hank

http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli

[Scott Alfter]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

In article <camt11l4828sudqbm96a5jgud12q7flgpb@4ax.com>,
Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote:Funky power supplies are pretty much the norm for big OEMs, the trickwith Dells is that they were physically identical to standard ATXsupplies but where electrically different. Made it just too temptingfor people to try swapping out the board or power supply with astandard one that just wouldn't work. With HPaq supplies, forexample, they are still non-standard, but at least you KNOW that theyare non-standard since they won't fit into an ATX connector withoutthe use of a decently large hammer.

I've had to replace power supplies in HP equipment, and they use the same
ATX connector as everybody else. (One of them needed the same tiny power
supply that eMachines used in some of its boxes, due to space constraints.
I guess it's a good thing that the power supplies in eMachines boxes were so
crappy that the aftermarket had to step forward with replacements. :-| )

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Linux)

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=GRzH
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[George Macdonald]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:15:09 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:47:12 -0500, George Macdonald<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:27:28 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>wrote:Proprietary keyboard connector?! The only place I've ever seen one ofthose was a Packard Hell, where it has a special keyboard + mouse +speaker/mic connector all in one. All the Compaq and HP machines I'vecome across use plain old PS/2 (or sometimes USB) keyboards and mice.Mind you, I pretty much only deal with their commercial line, so Idon't know what the deal is with the Presario systems.Oops I just dated myself.... AGAIN! Way back, Compaq had a proprietarykeyboard connector - nothing else fit and there was no adapter - maybethats why people bought more than one??:-) I recall a Wyse 386 system wegot had a RJ-11 for the keyboard connector, just like their TTYs, but atleast they supplied an adapter with the system.In mentioning a Wyse computer I think you are REALLY dating yourselfthere George! :>

Harrumph - just you wait an' see: 20 years will snap by without you even
noticing. At least Wyse is still in business, though I've no idea when
they made their last PC - ours was a 386/16... with a 1MB full length
memory upgrade card.:-)
Now that you mention it though, I do remember seeing some odd-ballconnectors for keyboards on a variety of computers way back in the day(286 and 386 era mainly). Never much dealt with any of those though,mainly since I was still in grade school at the time!A slightly more annoying problem with these machines is that astandard floppy drive usually will not work. Fortunately floppies arerarely used these days, but when they are needed, it's a bit of a PITAto have to get a specific HPaq (or Dell) part at the rather exorbitantprices they charge (~$40 US as I recall?)So much for "industry standards" - makes DIY even more attractive.Yup, I wouldn't think of getting an HPaq or a Dell for home use.However for business systems where you need to support anything morethan about 10 machines they start to become REAL attractive. Having asingle source for all your driver downloads, being able to use thesame basic procedure for setting up and supporting your systems canreally help. Not to mention the fact that you can get all yourreplacement parts sent overnight when one goes bad.

If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure but
even a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could* need
different HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and even
different chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see this
with even the few Thinkpads we have.

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

[Henry Nettles]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:46:39 -0500, George Macdonald
<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:15:09 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>wrote:On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:47:12 -0500, George Macdonald<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:

<snip>
Yup, I wouldn't think of getting an HPaq or a Dell for home use.However for business systems where you need to support anything morethan about 10 machines they start to become REAL attractive. Having asingle source for all your driver downloads, being able to use thesame basic procedure for setting up and supporting your systems canreally help. Not to mention the fact that you can get all yourreplacement parts sent overnight when one goes bad.If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure buteven a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could* needdifferent HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and evendifferent chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see thiswith even the few Thinkpads we have.

A few years ago, I was working for Chevron when they entered into an
agreement to buy 30,000 (yes, thirty-thousand) desktop systems from
HP. All of the systems were the same, and HP agreed as part of the
contract to make them EXACTLY the same. It took the best part of one
full year to roll out all of the new desktops, and the last system
delivered cost exactly the same as the first one -- imagine how much
the prices would have declined over the cost of a year, if not locked
in. However, the way Chevron management had it figured, the desktop
systems were going to last for 3 years, and the cost of support was
$300 per month, so the initial hardware costs were insignificant
compared to the support costs.

And this $300 a month support cost was already taking into account the
savings associated with every desktop being EXACTLY the same, and the
only real support you got was, "You've got a problem, we'll re-image
your PC."

[David Schwartz]

"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
news:66k5219u9uia3v4s0dho3f2nmg30cr9puo@4ax.com...
I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which components they want/need is too much work.

I strongly urge people to avoid local system builders (unless they have
solid recommendations or they are qualified to evaluate the system builder).
I have heard too many stories and had too many experiences with incompetent
installation, rushed installation, incompatible parts, substandard parts,
overpricing, bait and switch, and so on.

DS

[daytripper]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:55:45 -0800, "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com>
wrote:
"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in messagenews:66k5219u9uia3v4s0dho3f2nmg30cr9puo@4ax.com... I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which components they want/need is too much work. I strongly urge people to avoid local system builders (unless they havesolid recommendations or they are qualified to evaluate the system builder).I have heard too many stories and had too many experiences with incompetentinstallation, rushed installation, incompatible parts, substandard parts,overpricing, bait and switch, and so on.

[..../]

Dell Irony Meter

(yeah - *none* of that ever happens with the Big Guys ;-)

[George Macdonald]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:52:08 GMT, "Hank Oredson" <horedson@earthlink.net>
wrote:
"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in messagenews:66k5219u9uia3v4s0dho3f2nmg30cr9puo@4ax.com... On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:03:27 GMT, "Hank Oredson" <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote:"Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:opsmu75kmvft8z8r@news.individual.net...>>> None of which has anything to do with Dell, which>>> is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked.>>> Hank Oredson <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote:>> What brand would you endorse?>> It entirely depends on your intended uses. For> my own work (2D-intensive), I build my own. For> neighbors with generic requirements, the MicroTels> that Wal-Mart sells (web only), are perfectly> adequate inexpensive platforms, and are supportable,> as they have both Windows and Linux drivers.>>> Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems).>> Dells have been problem-free.>> The question is - when you have a problem, just> how big a problem do you have? One of the things> that has put me off Dell is their periodic forays> into needless proprietary stuff, including motherboard> power connectors.Have not lost MB or PS on a Dell yet, and I'm prettysure they stopped that non-standard PS nonesense According to what we hear in c.s.i.p.h.c they are still doing it. As for the "lost" part, the devil is not in the replacing - diagnosing & finding it is the real rub; having a standard part which can be swapped in is umm, nice. Do you really want some screwdriver jockey from a 3rd party maintenance op. monkeying with your system and all its valuable data?Never a problem. I do the work, or my wife does, we are bothcompetent with tools and test equipment.

It's a long while since I had a big OEM system but, back then, in the
warranty period, self-repair with vendor supplied parts was not an option.
IOW I had to bite my tongue as some monkey from TRW(IIRC) hacked at our
system; after he'd gone I had to tighten the mbrd mounting screws, reseat
the add-in cards, reset the case cover so it fit and uncross the
cross-threaded screws.:-)
I'm looking for something more high end, won't find oneat Wal-Mart. No problem building my own, have builtdozens over the years, was just curious if there weresome particular brands folks liked. I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which components they want/need is too much work.The local system builders do not build machines as good as theones that I build :-) Points are well taken though, thank you.

Agreed -- no doubt DIY is best -- but if you can find a decent local guy, I
believe it'll be a cut above what you can get from large OEMs.

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

[David Schwartz]

"daytripper" <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:49g721p621c260l55iag63t69valmf2msh@4ax.com...
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:55:45 -0800, "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:
"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in messagenews:66k5219u9uia3v4s0dho3f2nmg30cr9puo@4ax.com...
I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which components they want/need is too much work.
I strongly urge people to avoid local system builders (unless they havesolid recommendations or they are qualified to evaluate the systembuilder).I have heard too many stories and had too many experiences withincompetentinstallation, rushed installation, incompatible parts, substandard parts,overpricing, bait and switch, and so on.
(yeah - *none* of that ever happens with the Big Guys ;-)

I didn't say to go to the big guys, I said to avoid local system
builders unless they have solid recommendations or you are qualified to
evaluate the system builder. Did I mention that local system builders often
give you a warranty that is utterly worthless and may use parts that don't
have any warranties at all.

DS

[keith]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:46:39 -0500, George Macdonald wrote:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:15:09 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote:On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:47:12 -0500, George Macdonald<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:27:28 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>wrote:>Proprietary keyboard connector?! The only place I've ever seen one of>those was a Packard Hell, where it has a special keyboard + mouse +>speaker/mic connector all in one. All the Compaq and HP machines I've>come across use plain old PS/2 (or sometimes USB) keyboards and mice.>Mind you, I pretty much only deal with their commercial line, so I>don't know what the deal is with the Presario systems.Oops I just dated myself.... AGAIN! Way back, Compaq had a proprietarykeyboard connector - nothing else fit and there was no adapter - maybethats why people bought more than one??:-) I recall a Wyse 386 system wegot had a RJ-11 for the keyboard connector, just like their TTYs, but atleast they supplied an adapter with the system.In mentioning a Wyse computer I think you are REALLY dating yourselfthere George! :> Harrumph - just you wait an' see: 20 years will snap by without you even noticing. At least Wyse is still in business, though I've no idea when they made their last PC - ours was a 386/16... with a 1MB full length memory upgrade card.:-)

Yeah, I still remember my first (legal) beer. Oh, wait! You said 20
years. ;-) Hey! I'm still 34! Hey Tony, catching up yet? ;-)
Now that you mention it though, I do remember seeing some odd-ballconnectors for keyboards on a variety of computers way back in the day(286 and 386 era mainly). Never much dealt with any of those though,mainly since I was still in grade school at the time!

I remember the odd-ball connector on the 5150. Who in their right mind
would use a 5-pin DIN connector? What *were* they thinking? Who would
have positive edge-triggered interrupts? ...but I digress. ;-)
Yup, I wouldn't think of getting an HPaq or a Dell for home use. Howeverfor business systems where you need to support anything more than about10 machines they start to become REAL attractive. Having a singlesource for all your driver downloads, being able to use the same basicprocedure for setting up and supporting your systems can really help.Not to mention the fact that you can get all your replacement parts sentovernight when one goes bad. If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure but even a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could* need different HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and even different chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see this with even the few Thinkpads we have.

Sure. What about those with the hardware setting on the hard disk? The
PS/2s at least had configuration floppys that could be saved.

--
Keith

[keith]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:48:26 -0600, Henry Nettles wrote:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:46:39 -0500, George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:15:09 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>wrote:On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:47:12 -0500, George Macdonald<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote: <snip>Yup, I wouldn't think of getting an HPaq or a Dell for home use.However for business systems where you need to support anything morethan about 10 machines they start to become REAL attractive. Having asingle source for all your driver downloads, being able to use thesame basic procedure for setting up and supporting your systems canreally help. Not to mention the fact that you can get all yourreplacement parts sent overnight when one goes bad.If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure buteven a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could* needdifferent HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and evendifferent chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see thiswith even the few Thinkpads we have. A few years ago, I was working for Chevron when they entered into an agreement to buy 30,000 (yes, thirty-thousand) desktop systems from HP. All of the systems were the same, and HP agreed as part of the contract to make them EXACTLY the same. It took the best part of one full year to roll out all of the new desktops, and the last system delivered cost exactly the same as the first one -- imagine how much the prices would have declined over the cost of a year, if not locked in.

Or how much HPaq knew they were going to decline and figured it into
the bid. (my bet)
However, the way Chevron management had it figured, the desktop systems were going to last for 3 years, and the cost of support was $300 per month, so the initial hardware costs were insignificant compared to the support costs.

No question. Hardware is cheap. My company wanted to replace my laptop
this year. My setup was more valuable to me than the new laptop was. Not
to mention that I would be going backwards. I refused the "upgrade".
And this $300 a month support cost was already taking into account the savings associated with every desktop being EXACTLY the same, and the only real support you got was, "You've got a problem, we'll re-image your PC."

$300/month shows rather well the Redmond tax. What is that, one
Win-bod per 20 desks? Yikes!

--
Keith

[Joe Pfeiffer]

"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> writes:
"daytripper" <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message news:49g721p621c260l55iag63t69valmf2msh@4ax.com... On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:55:45 -0800, "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in messagenews:66k5219u9uia3v4s0dho3f2nmg30cr9puo@4ax.com...> I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells> anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which> components they want/need is too much work. I strongly urge people to avoid local system builders (unless they havesolid recommendations or they are qualified to evaluate the systembuilder).I have heard too many stories and had too many experiences withincompetentinstallation, rushed installation, incompatible parts, substandard parts,overpricing, bait and switch, and so on. (yeah - *none* of that ever happens with the Big Guys ;-) I didn't say to go to the big guys, I said to avoid local system builders unless they have solid recommendations or you are qualified to evaluate the system builder. Did I mention that local system builders often give you a warranty that is utterly worthless and may use parts that don't have any warranties at all.

If you recommend against the little guys, and don't recommend the big
guys, who is left? Surely you're not suggesting people who aren't
competent to judge the system builder should build their own?
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer

[George Macdonald]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:48:26 -0600, Henry Nettles <hnettles@hal-pc.org>
wrote:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:46:39 -0500, George Macdonald<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:15:09 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>wrote:On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:47:12 -0500, George Macdonald<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:<snip>Yup, I wouldn't think of getting an HPaq or a Dell for home use.However for business systems where you need to support anything morethan about 10 machines they start to become REAL attractive. Having asingle source for all your driver downloads, being able to use thesame basic procedure for setting up and supporting your systems canreally help. Not to mention the fact that you can get all yourreplacement parts sent overnight when one goes bad.If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure buteven a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could* needdifferent HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and evendifferent chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see thiswith even the few Thinkpads we have.A few years ago, I was working for Chevron when they entered into anagreement to buy 30,000 (yes, thirty-thousand) desktop systems fromHP. All of the systems were the same, and HP agreed as part of thecontract to make them EXACTLY the same. It took the best part of onefull year to roll out all of the new desktops, and the last systemdelivered cost exactly the same as the first one -- imagine how muchthe prices would have declined over the cost of a year, if not lockedin. However, the way Chevron management had it figured, the desktopsystems were going to last for 3 years, and the cost of support was$300 per month, so the initial hardware costs were insignificantcompared to the support costs.

Happy day for HP and their sales guy.:-) I *know* that there are people at
Chevron who enjoy performance jumps and that kind of policy, if enforced
globally, would kinda leave them in the lurch... maybe they get exceptions?
It would seem grossly myopic, IMO, to provide your average
memo-writer/spread-sheet jockey with the same hardware as the guy who's
planning the future of the company with a seismic analysis or a 10K row LP
model!

If you look at where we were a year ago and how far we've come, the
performance has just leapt ahead: with AMD, e.g., we've got commodity mbrds
which take Athlon64s, which are also freely available... and the A64s
themselves have gone from socket 754 to 939 (i.e. single to dual channel
memory), with a reduction in design metrics which *has* reduced (as opposed
to Intel) temperatures considerably on similar CPU performance. I can
hammer my Athlon64 3500+ 90nm all day and it runs at 52C or so.
And this $300 a month support cost was already taking into account thesavings associated with every desktop being EXACTLY the same, and theonly real support you got was, "You've got a problem, we'll re-imageyour PC."

Yeah well that kind of "support" tends to breed users who are creative or
err, meddlers.

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

[George Macdonald]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:55:45 -0800, "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com>
wrote:
"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in messagenews:66k5219u9uia3v4s0dho3f2nmg30cr9puo@4ax.com... I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which components they want/need is too much work. I strongly urge people to avoid local system builders (unless they havesolid recommendations or they are qualified to evaluate the system builder).I have heard too many stories and had too many experiences with incompetentinstallation, rushed installation, incompatible parts, substandard parts,overpricing, bait and switch, and so on.

Well I wouldn't recommend the Yellow Pages blind pin approach.:-)

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

[David Schwartz]

"Joe Pfeiffer" <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote in message
news:1by8d7c3af.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu...
If you recommend against the little guys, and don't recommend the big guys, who is left? Surely you're not suggesting people who aren't competent to judge the system builder should build their own?

There are lots of other options.

For example, you could hire someone to evaluate your needs and hire a
system builder for you. Ideally, this person would be paid a fixed price, so
he has no incentive to sell you things you don't need or allow the system
builder to give you inferior parts.

There are, of course, also medium-sized companies.

DS

[Tony Hill]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:12:54 -0500, daytripper
<day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:55:45 -0800, "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com>wrote:"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in messagenews:66k5219u9uia3v4s0dho3f2nmg30cr9puo@4ax.com... I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which components they want/need is too much work. I strongly urge people to avoid local system builders (unless they havesolid recommendations or they are qualified to evaluate the system builder).I have heard too many stories and had too many experiences with incompetentinstallation, rushed installation, incompatible parts, substandard parts,overpricing, bait and switch, and so on.[..../]Dell Irony Meter(yeah - *none* of that ever happens with the Big Guys ;-)

While Dell, HPaq and the like aren't exactly top-notch quality, I've
seen WAY worse sketchiness from the small local vendors. A *GOOD*
small local vendor can set you up with a very good PC, but there are
plenty of REALLY shady characters running PC shops and it's often hard
to pick out the good from the bad, particularly for those who don't
already know exactly what they're after.

With Dell you just get fairly consistently average setups with an
average amount of problems. They're definitely not using
top-of-the-line parts by any stretch, but at least they aren't using
some PC Chips motherboard or the like, and you know that they have at
least booted a system with your exact configuration once or twice in a
lab before sending it. The same is often not true for some of the
small-time local guys.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[Tony Hill]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:46:39 -0500, George Macdonald
<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:15:09 -0500, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>wrote:Yup, I wouldn't think of getting an HPaq or a Dell for home use.However for business systems where you need to support anything morethan about 10 machines they start to become REAL attractive. Having asingle source for all your driver downloads, being able to use thesame basic procedure for setting up and supporting your systems canreally help. Not to mention the fact that you can get all yourreplacement parts sent overnight when one goes bad.If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure buteven a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could* needdifferent HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and evendifferent chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see thiswith even the few Thinkpads we have.

That's one of the reasons why you stick with the commercial systems
and not the consumer-grade crap. For example, HP only JUST
discontinued their d530 models, nearly 2 years after they were first
released. In fact, I think you can still buy them, though they're no
longer producing new ones. These systems used the exact same
motherboard with integrated video, sound and NIC drivers, nearly 2
years after they were first introduced. If you buy a new dc7100
system today you will still be able to buy more a year from now with
the exact same config.

Same goes for Dell and their Optiplex line. Yes you pay a bit more
money for these systems, but they will tend to save on support costs
in the long run, especially for larger businesses. Of course, there
are also MANY other reasons to stick with the commercial-grade
systems, even if the quality of performance of these systems might not
differ much from the consumer stuff. If nothing else you at least
tend to get support that's been outsourced up here to the Great White
North instead of support that's been outsourced to India or the
Philippines.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[Tony Hill]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:45:04 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:46:39 -0500, George Macdonald wrote: Harrumph - just you wait an' see: 20 years will snap by without you even noticing. At least Wyse is still in business, though I've no idea when they made their last PC - ours was a 386/16... with a 1MB full length memory upgrade card.:-)Yeah, I still remember my first (legal) beer. Oh, wait! You said 20years. ;-) Hey! I'm still 34! Hey Tony, catching up yet? ;-)

Nope, I'm still a teenager by you're way of counting... <shudder> I
REALLY don't like you're way of counting... It might have been fun to
be a teenager at one time, but definitely not anymore!
If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure but even a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could* need different HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and even different chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see this with even the few Thinkpads we have.Sure. What about those with the hardware setting on the hard disk? ThePS/2s at least had configuration floppys that could be saved.

Ugg, don't even get me started about the early Compaq Deskpro systems
and their BIOS-on-hard-disk. If you want a REAL pain in the ass, that
was it!

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[keith]

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 02:14:22 -0500, Tony Hill wrote:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:45:04 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:46:39 -0500, George Macdonald wrote: Harrumph - just you wait an' see: 20 years will snap by without you even noticing. At least Wyse is still in business, though I've no idea when they made their last PC - ours was a 386/16... with a 1MB full length memory upgrade card.:-)Yeah, I still remember my first (legal) beer. Oh, wait! You said 20years. ;-) Hey! I'm still 34! Hey Tony, catching up yet? ;-) Nope, I'm still a teenager by you're way of counting... <shudder> I REALLY don't like you're way of counting... It might have been fun to be a teenager at one time, but definitely not anymore!

Ok, you haven't caught up yet but trsut me, you'll see things differently
in a few short years. ;-) If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure but even a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could* need different HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and even different chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see this with even the few Thinkpads we have.Sure. What about those with the hardware setting on the hard disk? ThePS/2s at least had configuration floppys that could be saved. Ugg, don't even get me started about the early Compaq Deskpro systems and their BIOS-on-hard-disk. If you want a REAL pain in the ass, that was it!

That was exactly what I was referring to. ...and people thought the
Microchannel was a PITA. Of course Microchannnel was designed for
business use (roll-outs by the thousands and where a couple of
transistors didn't matter), but the alternatives were *far* worse.

--
Keith

[keith]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:59:49 +0000, Hank Oredson wrote:
"keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message news:pan.2005.02.27.16.17.34.729801@att.bizzzz... On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 05:37:46 +0000, Hank Oredson wrote: "Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:opsmtgbqy0ft8z8r@news.individual.net...>> Gnu_Raiz <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:>>> What ever happened to the saying, in like Flint!>> Actually, "In Like Flint" was a movie title, and> was a play on words from the real cliche, which was> "In like Flynn", referring to actor Eroll Flynn,> who had a bit of a reputation with the ladies, and> later managed to avoid successful prosecution for> events involving an underaged lass and his yatch.>> Apparently the expression meant "sure to get lucky"> prior to the prosecution, and morphed to "and you'll> get away with it, even if illegal" afterwards.> Any number of web sites have more detail.>> None of which has anything to do with Dell, which> is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked. What brand would you endorse? KeithKit There are 4 or 5 HankKits made from recycled free machines sitting in the next room :-)

Then why change now?
Serious question, about to upgrade and will either build my own, or buy a Dell or PowerSpec. If you're up to it (it's not hard), build your own. No question! Have built dozens.

Then why...
Usually spend too much time and money doing so, compared to a high end Dell or PowerSpec. Might do it again, since right now Dell doesn't have what I want. The high end PowerSpec is close, and priced just a tad under what I could do by building one myself. Their service is good, couple of my relatives (including my 90 year old mother) have them and are very pleased.

I've haven't found a system I wanted that I couldn't buy cheaper for
close to a dozen years. Yes, I tend to be pickey with some peripherals.
Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems). Dells have been problem-free. So you've never had to replace parts or get service? Don't recall every needing to call their support staff, the machines "just work". All are XPS systems, newest is an 8200. It's my old T550 that needs replacement (grin).

Alrighty then. YOu don't know what crap Dell service (and AFAIK, all the
others) has become. I believe it was GeorgeM a while ago recanting his
dealings with Dell's Indian connection on "desktop-class" systems.
Have replaced lots of parts in the Dells, always by choice. Better vid, bigger disk, more ram, etc. Did lose one hard drive and had to replace it, no big deal.

Power supplies? Motherboards?
So I was just curious which brand of already built plug it in it works machine you might endorse.

For desktops? Were I rich or twenty years younger, an Apple G5. But
that's not what you meant, I trust. ;-) In fact I went with the Opteron
because it was (far) cheaper.

Laptops, nothing but a ThinkPad (or maybe PowerBook in a while).

--
Keith

[keith]

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:33:25 -0800, David Schwartz wrote:
"Joe Pfeiffer" <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote in message news:1by8d7c3af.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu... If you recommend against the little guys, and don't recommend the big guys, who is left? Surely you're not suggesting people who aren't competent to judge the system builder should build their own? There are lots of other options. For example, you could hire someone to evaluate your needs and hire a system builder for you. Ideally, this person would be paid a fixed price, so he has no incentive to sell you things you don't need or allow the system builder to give you inferior parts. There are, of course, also medium-sized companies.

Ok? Who?!

--
Keith

[Hank Oredson]

"keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.03.03.01.22.44.515231@att.bizzzz... On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:59:49 +0000, Hank Oredson wrote: "keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message news:pan.2005.02.27.16.17.34.729801@att.bizzzz... On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 05:37:46 +0000, Hank Oredson wrote:> "Bob Niland" <email4rjn@yahoo.com> wrote in message> news:opsmtgbqy0ft8z8r@news.individual.net...>>> Gnu_Raiz <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:>>>>> What ever happened to the saying, in like Flint!>>>> Actually, "In Like Flint" was a movie title, and>> was a play on words from the real cliche, which was>> "In like Flynn", referring to actor Eroll Flynn,>> who had a bit of a reputation with the ladies, and>> later managed to avoid successful prosecution for>> events involving an underaged lass and his yatch.>>>> Apparently the expression meant "sure to get lucky">> prior to the prosecution, and morphed to "and you'll>> get away with it, even if illegal" afterwards.>> Any number of web sites have more detail.>>>> None of which has anything to do with Dell, which>> is not a brand I buy or endorse when asked.>>> What brand would you endorse? KeithKit There are 4 or 5 HankKits made from recycled free machines sitting in the next room :-) Then why change now?

Time, cost.
Doesn't matter if I screw up a junker, they are free.
Doesn't matter how long it takes to get one fixed if needed.
> Serious question, about to upgrade and will either> build my own, or buy a Dell or PowerSpec. If you're up to it (it's not hard), build your own. No question! Have built dozens. Then why...

Time, cost, warranty.
Doesn't matter if the junker breaks, just toss it and use another.
Usually spend too much time and money doing so, compared to a high end Dell or PowerSpec. Might do it again, since right now Dell doesn't have what I want. The high end PowerSpec is close, and priced just a tad under what I could do by building one myself. Their service is good, couple of my relatives (including my 90 year old mother) have them and are very pleased. I've haven't found a system I wanted that I couldn't buy cheaper for close to a dozen years. Yes, I tend to be pickey with some peripherals.> Have three Dells in the house (plus 4 other systems).> Dells have been problem-free. So you've never had to replace parts or get service? Don't recall every needing to call their support staff, the machines "just work". All are XPS systems, newest is an 8200. It's my old T550 that needs replacement (grin). Alrighty then. YOu don't know what crap Dell service (and AFAIK, all the others) has become. I believe it was GeorgeM a while ago recanting his dealings with Dell's Indian connection on "desktop-class" systems.
Have replaced lots of parts in the Dells, always by choice. Better vid, bigger disk, more ram, etc. Did lose one hard drive and had to replace it, no big deal. Power supplies? Motherboards?

Never had one go bad.
Have had bad PS on home brew machines, bad out of the box.
Ditto motherboards, bad out of the box.
So I was just curious which brand of already built plug it in it works machine you might endorse. For desktops? Were I rich or twenty years younger, an Apple G5. But that's not what you meant, I trust. ;-) In fact I went with the Opteron because it was (far) cheaper.

x86 is a requirement, so no Apples.
Laptops, nothing but a ThinkPad (or maybe PowerBook in a while).

--

... Hank

http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli

[David Schwartz]

"keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.03.03.01.25.15.381509@att.bizzzz... On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:33:25 -0800, David Schwartz wrote:
There are, of course, also medium-sized companies. Ok? Who?!

Grab any copy of any computer magazine and you will see dozens of ads
for computer systems made and sold by medium-sized companies.

DS

[David Schwartz]

"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote in message
news:d06460$g9q$1@nntp.webmaster.com... "keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message news:pan.2005.03.03.01.25.15.381509@att.bizzzz... On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:33:25 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: There are, of course, also medium-sized companies. Ok? Who?! Grab any copy of any computer magazine and you will see dozens of ads for computer systems made and sold by medium-sized companies.

A few include MainPC, Globus, pcboost, American CompuTech, Portatech,
USA-PCCITY, United Micro, CableMart, and MILEGROUP. Note that these are not
endorsements. Some of these actually resell complete systems )sometimes with
customizations on things like memory, video card, hard drive, and so on)
made other companies such as Asus, Comet, Jungle, X Technology, and MGE.

DS

[Tony Hill]

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 20:14:33 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 02:14:22 -0500, Tony Hill wrote: Nope, I'm still a teenager by you're way of counting... <shudder> I REALLY don't like you're way of counting... It might have been fun to be a teenager at one time, but definitely not anymore!Ok, you haven't caught up yet but trsut me, you'll see things differentlyin a few short years. ;-)

Ask me again in another 5 years and I might agree, but not just yet!
Ugg, don't even get me started about the early Compaq Deskpro systems and their BIOS-on-hard-disk. If you want a REAL pain in the ass, that was it!That was exactly what I was referring to. ...and people thought theMicrochannel was a PITA. Of course Microchannnel was designed forbusiness use (roll-outs by the thousands and where a couple oftransistors didn't matter), but the alternatives were *far* worse.

The worst part about the Deskpro's is that they continued to use this
WELL after Microchannel had come and gone. In fact, it wasn't until
the Deskpro EN line (PII systems, first released in '97 or '98 I
think) that Compaq finally abandoned this crazy scheme.

The stupidest part about the whole thing was that it wasn't even the
BIOS data itself that was on the hard disk, that was still in firmware
on the motherboard. However the ONLY way to access it was using some
graphical program that either had to be a partition on a hard disk or
a set of 3 boot up floppies (which NEVER seemed to work right for me).
All just so that they could get a Windows 3.1-ish GUI frontend to the
BIOS. Compaq definitely deserved some smacking upside the head for
that whole ordeal, though fortunately it looks like the engineers won
out over the marketing-droids for the next round, as the Deskpro EN
systems were quite possibly the best build x86 desktops ever made.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[George Macdonald]

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 20:22:47 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
Alrighty then. YOu don't know what crap Dell service (and AFAIK, all theothers) has become. I believe it was GeorgeM a while ago recanting hisdealings with Dell's Indian connection on "desktop-class" systems.

No - I haven't had any direct dealings with Dell for years. I may have
mentioned the travails of other folks with that though.

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

[keith]

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 20:35:10 -0800, David Schwartz wrote:
"keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message news:pan.2005.03.03.01.25.15.381509@att.bizzzz... On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:33:25 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: There are, of course, also medium-sized companies. Ok? Who?! Grab any copy of any computer magazine and you will see dozens of ads for computer systems made and sold by medium-sized companies.

Ok, but I wouldn't call *any* medium-sized. My first Pentium system was
a Quantex, by your definition a "medium-sized" builder. It was junk, as
was the support and everything else. They're no longer (surprise,
surprise). The fact is that this business doesn't allow for
"medium-sized". You're either big, and can leverage prices, or small and
can leverage service. There isn't anything inbetween.

We'll disagree.

--
Keith

[David Schwartz]

"keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.03.07.00.36.54.412808@att.bizzzz... On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 20:35:10 -0800, David Schwartz wrote:
"keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message news:pan.2005.03.03.01.25.15.381509@att.bizzzz... On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:33:25 -0800, David Schwartz wrote:
> There are, of course, also medium-sized companies. Ok? Who?!
Grab any copy of any computer magazine and you will see dozens of ads for computer systems made and sold by medium-sized companies.
Ok, but I wouldn't call *any* medium-sized. My first Pentium system was a Quantex, by your definition a "medium-sized" builder. It was junk, as was the support and everything else. They're no longer (surprise, surprise). The fact is that this business doesn't allow for "medium-sized". You're either big, and can leverage prices, or small and can leverage service. There isn't anything inbetween. We'll disagree.

I don't understand, are you saying the medium-sized companies don't
exist or that you don't recommend them? If the former, we definitely
disagree. If the latter, I never recommend them. I simply said they're an
alternative to the largest and the smallest companies.

DS

[keith]

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 17:48:42 -0800, David Schwartz wrote:
"keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message news:pan.2005.03.07.00.36.54.412808@att.bizzzz... On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 20:35:10 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: "keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message news:pan.2005.03.03.01.25.15.381509@att.bizzzz...> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:33:25 -0800, David Schwartz wrote:>> There are, of course, also medium-sized companies.>> Ok? Who?! Grab any copy of any computer magazine and you will see dozens of ads for computer systems made and sold by medium-sized companies. Ok, but I wouldn't call *any* medium-sized. My first Pentium system was a Quantex, by your definition a "medium-sized" builder. It was junk, as was the support and everything else. They're no longer (surprise, surprise). The fact is that this business doesn't allow for "medium-sized". You're either big, and can leverage prices, or small and can leverage service. There isn't anything inbetween. We'll disagree. I don't understand, are you saying the medium-sized companies don't exist or that you don't recommend them? If the former, we definitely disagree. If the latter, I never recommend them. I simply said they're an alternative to the largest and the smallest companies.

Actually, I'm saying *both*. There are some who *pretend* to be large
enough to be well enough funded to be considered mid-sized, but I wouldn't
go there either. The market just doesn't allow anyone in the middle.

--
Keith

[David Schwartz]

"keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.03.07.02.33.53.174968@att.bizzzz...
Actually, I'm saying *both*. There are some who *pretend* to be large enough to be well enough funded to be considered mid-sized, but I wouldn't go there either. The market just doesn't allow anyone in the middle.

How do you explain this:

http://usa.asus.com/products/server/system/ap1710-e1/overview.htm

Or this:

http://www.emachines.com/products/products.html?prod=eMachines_T3958

Or this:

http://wyse.vecmar.com/winterm/winterm_9650XE.htm

DS

[keith]

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 20:39:29 -0800, David Schwartz wrote:
"keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message news:pan.2005.03.07.02.33.53.174968@att.bizzzz... Actually, I'm saying *both*. There are some who *pretend* to be large enough to be well enough funded to be considered mid-sized, but I wouldn't go there either. The market just doesn't allow anyone in the middle. How do you explain this: http://usa.asus.com/products/server/system/ap1710-e1/overview.htm

Asus isn't exactly a middle-sized company. Or this: http://www.emachines.com/products/products.html?prod=eMachines_T3958

E-Machines is owned by Gateway, ...hardly a small company either. Well,
at least they don't think they are, yet.
Or this: http://wyse.vecmar.com/winterm/winterm_9650XE.htm

Don't know anything about the company.

--
Keith

[David Schwartz]

"keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.03.07.04.51.23.748345@att.bizzzz...
Asus isn't exactly a middle-sized company.
E-Machines is owned by Gateway, ...hardly a small company either. Well, at least they don't think they are, yet.

Ahh. I thought you would complain these were all too small. Here are
some smaller companies.

Remember the context -- I was suggesting these as an alternative to
Compaq/HP/Dell or local system builders. These are certainly neither of
those.

http://www.xtechnology.com/scr/xtcat.dll/ListItemsC?LineID=P4&CategId=59

http://www.usa-pccity.com/mall/desktop.asp

http://www.arsenalpc.com/Items.asp?CatID=10

Note: These are *not* recommendations.

DS

[daytripper]

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:36:31 -0800, "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com>
wrote:
"keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in messagenews:pan.2005.03.07.04.51.23.748345@att.bizzzz... Asus isn't exactly a middle-sized company. E-Machines is owned by Gateway, ...hardly a small company either. Well, at least they don't think they are, yet. Ahh. I thought you would complain these were all too small. Here aresome smaller companies. Remember the context -- I was suggesting these as an alternative toCompaq/HP/Dell or local system builders. These are certainly neither ofthose.http://www.xtechnology.com/scr/xtcat.dll/ListItemsC?LineID=P4&CategId=59http://www.usa-pccity.com/mall/desktop.asphttp://www.arsenalpc.com/Items.asp?CatID=10 Note: These are *not* recommendations.

Ya know, your opinion in this matter might carry more than a mote of
significance if you didn't keep totally discounting what you propose.

Crap or get off the pot: we want names!

;-)

[David Schwartz]

"daytripper" <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:34np21d4nqm8bskqega17901gj29c7u0bd@4ax.com...
Ya know, your opinion in this matter might carry more than a mote of significance if you didn't keep totally discounting what you propose. Crap or get off the pot: we want names!

I can only win one argument at a time. The argument I'm currently in is
over whether the only choices for buying systems are large vendors like HP,
Compaq, and Dell, or local system builders. My point is that there's a whole
world of choices out there.

Someone saying "don't use local system builders" isn't saying "buy from
Dell". Someone saying "don't buy from Dell" isn't saying "buy from local
system builders". There's a lot of choices out there.

I have major issues with local system builders. They are often
incompetent (nearly all of my assembly horror stories come from local
system builders or incompetent do-it-yourselfers, none come from large
companies, and only one came from a company of any significant size). They
sometimes use sub-standard or incompatible parts. They usually offer a
meaningless warranty and don't honor it anyway.

Compared to this, the issues with the big boys are actually minor. At
least they'll still be in business, they honor their warranties, and their
assemblers are competent. Personally, I have no problem recommending any of
these large companies to someone who is not qualified to specify and
assemble their own machine.

DS

[Hank Oredson]

"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote in message
news:d0iois$ktu$1@nntp.webmaster.com... "daytripper" <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message news:34np21d4nqm8bskqega17901gj29c7u0bd@4ax.com... Ya know, your opinion in this matter might carry more than a mote of significance if you didn't keep totally discounting what you propose. Crap or get off the pot: we want names! I can only win one argument at a time. The argument I'm currently in is over whether the only choices for buying systems are large vendors like HP, Compaq, and Dell, or local system builders. My point is that there's a whole world of choices out there.

Yes yes we all know this.

The thread is about which of those choices would be good ones,
and why they would be good ones, and some details of YOUR
experiences with the various vendors.

So share already. Did you like your eMachine?
Someone saying "don't use local system builders" isn't saying "buy from Dell". Someone saying "don't buy from Dell" isn't saying "buy from local system builders". There's a lot of choices out there.

What choices have you made?
I have major issues with local system builders. They are often incompetent (nearly all of my assembly horror stories come from local system builders or incompetent do-it-yourselfers, none come from large companies, and only one came from a company of any significant size). They sometimes use sub-standard or incompatible parts. They usually offer a meaningless warranty and don't honor it anyway.

Which ones? What problems?
Compared to this, the issues with the big boys are actually minor. At least they'll still be in business, they honor their warranties, and their assemblers are competent. Personally, I have no problem recommending any of these large companies to someone who is not qualified to specify and assemble their own machine.

Which "big boys" did you buy from?
How was the support?
What issues did you encounter?
Was this recently (12 months) or long ago?
Give us some actual experience.

--

... Hank

http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli

[David Schwartz]

"Hank Oredson" <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:JL9Xd.4192$cN6.810@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
The thread is about which of those choices would be good ones, and why they would be good ones, and some details of YOUR experiences with the various vendors.

Umm, no it's not. This is a huge increase in the scope of this thread,
and as far as I can tell, nobody's interested.

DS

[daytripper]

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:56:28 -0800, "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com>
wrote:
"Hank Oredson" <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote in messagenews:JL9Xd.4192$cN6.810@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net... The thread is about which of those choices would be good ones, and why they would be good ones, and some details of YOUR experiences with the various vendors. Umm, no it's not. This is a huge increase in the scope of this thread,and as far as I can tell, nobody's interested. DS

"That parachute you see below you is DS bailing out"

heh heh heh ;-)

[David Schwartz]

"daytripper" <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jm8s211s6a0v1md6flq9rh5botv3pfnlap@4ax.com... On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:56:28 -0800, "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:"Hank Oredson" <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote in messagenews:JL9Xd.4192$cN6.810@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net... The thread is about which of those choices would be good ones, and why they would be good ones, and some details of YOUR experiences with the various vendors. Umm, no it's not. This is a huge increase in the scope of this thread,and as far as I can tell, nobody's interested. DS "That parachute you see below you is DS bailing out" heh heh heh ;-)

I won't be dragged into your take on this thread. You can talk about
something else if you want, but you have no business trying to make me
defend an argument I never made.

DS

[Hank Oredson]

"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote in message
news:d0jiav$22n$1@nntp.webmaster.com... "Hank Oredson" <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:JL9Xd.4192$cN6.810@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net... The thread is about which of those choices would be good ones, and why they would be good ones, and some details of YOUR experiences with the various vendors. Umm, no it's not. This is a huge increase in the scope of this thread, and as far as I can tell, nobody's interested.


Then perhaps you would like to make some observations
on just how it is that Dell pulled a "Bait and switch"?
You have some adverts in hand, tried to order from Dell,
they would only sell you something more expensive?
When did you do that, what system did you try and buy,
were you unable to buy it?

--

... Hank

http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli

[Hank Oredson]

"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote in message
news:d0l9fo$s0o$1@nntp.webmaster.com... "daytripper" <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message news:jm8s211s6a0v1md6flq9rh5botv3pfnlap@4ax.com... On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:56:28 -0800, "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:"Hank Oredson" <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote in messagenews:JL9Xd.4192$cN6.810@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...> The thread is about which of those choices would be good ones,> and why they would be good ones, and some details of YOUR> experiences with the various vendors. Umm, no it's not. This is a huge increase in the scope of this thread,and as far as I can tell, nobody's interested. DS "That parachute you see below you is DS bailing out" heh heh heh ;-) I won't be dragged into your take on this thread. You can talk about something else if you want, but you have no business trying to make me defend an argument I never made.


Talk about bait and switch.
Be specific.
Give it a try!
Stay on topic.

--

... Hank

http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli

[David Schwartz]

"Hank Oredson" <horedson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:%2wXd.5279$cN6.1057@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Then perhaps you would like to make some observations on just how it is that Dell pulled a "Bait and switch"? You have some adverts in hand, tried to order from Dell, they would only sell you something more expensive? When did you do that, what system did you try and buy, were you unable to buy it?

Why are you talking to me specifically?

If you want to ask me about the things I've said, that's fine. But if
you want to ask general questions, ask them to everyone.

DS