Ripping audio CDs: Settings? 708A? PlexTools? Speed?

[Derek]

I hope this post isn't too OT, but I'm about to rip my audio CD
collection for the first time and I have a few hardware and software
questions. I would like to archive my music in AIFF or WAV format so I
do not have rip them again, which is why I'd rather ask lots of
questions and get it right the first time than spend hours re-ripping later.

1. I plan on using my Plextor 708A. It might not be the best drive on
the market, but I've seen good reviews and test scores. Is there any
reason I *shouldn't* use it for ripping audio? (Incidentally, what is
the best drive for DAE these days?)

2. I like PlexTools because it's much faster than EAC (and reported to
be just as secure). But is extraction accuracy compromised by extracting
at high speed (up to 17-40X CAV for the 708A)? Will I get more accurate
extractions at lower speeds? Of course I will let the drive slow down
when re-reading trouble spots, but should I ever intentionally extract
slower?

3. Unlike EAC, PlexTools doesn't support a Test+Copy mode that compares
the CRCs of two consecutive extractions. Is there any real benefit to
performing a manual T+C by extracting twice and comparing files? I
recall getting very infrequent CRC mismatches with EAC, and only on
extremely mangled CDs. I would prefer to perform multiple extractions
only when PlexTools reports errors and they are audible. Is this reasonable?

4. I am planning to extract tracks without gaps. If I'm not interested
in making exact copies of my CDs, is there any benefit to extracting
image + CUE sheet instead?

5. I have a few CDs that produce audible clicks in trouble spots after
completely "error-free" extractions (as reported by PlexTools and EAC).
This means some errors can go undetected. Can I do anything to detect
these errors? If I knew they existed, I could at least make a note to
find a cleaner version of the CD.

6. Currently my 708A is a slave on the secondary IDE channel (a hard
drive is the master). I've had NO problems with this setup, but should I
take any precautions to help ensure accurate extraction -- perhaps by
making the 708A a master or giving it the channel to itself? Are IDE
problems a source of subtle, hard to detect errors, or obvious problems
like the drive just not working?

7. Any other tips or tricks for high-quality DAE?

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Graham Mayor]

Derek wrote: I hope this post isn't too OT, but I'm about to rip my audio CD collection for the first time and I have a few hardware and software questions. I would like to archive my music in AIFF or WAV format so I do not have rip them again, which is why I'd rather ask lots of questions and get it right the first time than spend hours re-ripping later.

Just curious but if you have the original discs why do you want to archive
them in this manner?

Personally I would rip to WAV or to Monkey's Audio APE format which EAC will
handle given the appropriate codec. APE produces file sizes some 50% smaller
without loss of quality (like mp3), but there is a processing overhead and
you seem to be in a hurry.
1. I plan on using my Plextor 708A. It might not be the best drive on the market, but I've seen good reviews and test scores. Is there any reason I *shouldn't* use it for ripping audio? (Incidentally, what is the best drive for DAE these days?)

I see no reason not to use this to rip, though have not personal experience
of it. It is almost certainly faster than my old Plex SCSI reader and writer
which continue to provide exemplary ripping performance.
2. I like PlexTools because it's much faster than EAC (and reported to be just as secure). But is extraction accuracy compromised by extracting at high speed (up to 17-40X CAV for the 708A)? Will I get more accurate extractions at lower speeds? Of course I will let the drive slow down when re-reading trouble spots, but should I ever intentionally
extract slower?

Speed is not the issue, it is error free reading that matters and how the
software deals with problems as they occur. ALL CDs have errors. Most of
those errors should be corrected in the ripping process. It is how you deal
with the ones that aren't handles correctly that is important - and usually
you don't get to know this until the disc is ripped. 3. Unlike EAC, PlexTools doesn't support a Test+Copy mode that compares the CRCs of two consecutive extractions. Is there any real benefit to performing a manual T+C by extracting twice and comparing files? I recall getting very infrequent CRC mismatches with EAC, and only on extremely mangled CDs. I would prefer to perform multiple extractions only when PlexTools reports errors and they are audible. Is this reasonable?

I have used both Plextools and EAC to rip discs - and some types of disc (eg
CD Extra discs) Plextools handles properly, whereas EAC is interested only
in the audio - but whenever I have an audio disc to rip, I would not dream
of using anything other than EAC, if only for the reason that it will report
errors and identify the bits it cannot correctly handle. But then if a job
is worth doing it is worth taking a little time over, and as EAC will rip as
a background task in Windows, I can always do something else while the job
gets done.
4. I am planning to extract tracks without gaps. If I'm not interested in making exact copies of my CDs, is there any benefit to extracting image + CUE sheet instead?

I have mixed feelings on this. I tend to go for separate tracks and create
my own cue sheets, if only because it allows me to make compilations later,
without having to extract the tracks from the images. EAC will rip to
separate folders based on the content if required (much like CDex does).
Setting up the filing system manually often takes as long at the ripping so
the ability of the software to do it for you is an advantage.
5. I have a few CDs that produce audible clicks in trouble spots after completely "error-free" extractions (as reported by PlexTools and EAC). This means some errors can go undetected. Can I do anything to detect these errors? If I knew they existed, I could at least make a note to find a cleaner version of the CD.

I have never known EAC produce clicks that weren't recorded on the original
disc as clicks, without reporting that it dealt with errors. Were these
clicks on the WAV file or on a disc burned from the file(s) which would
suggest an altogether different problem. 6. Currently my 708A is a slave on the secondary IDE channel (a hard drive is the master). I've had NO problems with this setup, but should I take any precautions to help ensure accurate extraction -- perhaps by making the 708A a master or giving it the channel to itself? Are IDE problems a source of subtle, hard to detect errors, or obvious problems like the drive just not working?

It shouldn't make any difference which IDE port is used.
7. Any other tips or tricks for high-quality DAE?

Take your time :)
Thanks for your thoughts.


--
<>>< ><<> ><<>
Graham Mayor
<>>< ><<> ><<>

[James Perrett]

Derek wrote: 1. I plan on using my Plextor 708A. It might not be the best drive on the market, but I've seen good reviews and test scores. Is there any reason I *shouldn't* use it for ripping audio? (Incidentally, what is the best drive for DAE these days?)

The 708 should be fine - it can report all the error types that are
necessary for extracting audio. In my experience the Plextor 4012S is
marginally better than the 708 but you'd have to be working with
severely scratched discs to notice. The only difference is that the 4012
will complete an extraction that any other drive gives up on. There's
also the Plextor Premium which will allow you to test more thoroughly
for errors.
2. I like PlexTools because it's much faster than EAC (and reported to be just as secure). But is extraction accuracy compromised by extracting at high speed (up to 17-40X CAV for the 708A)? Will I get more accurate extractions at lower speeds? Of course I will let the drive slow down when re-reading trouble spots, but should I ever intentionally extract slower?

Unlike Graham, I'm more confident about Plextools' abilities. You'll be
OK extracting at high speed but make sure that you have all the options
properly set. When first installed, Plextools won't re-read bad sectors
so you should change this.
3. Unlike EAC, PlexTools doesn't support a Test+Copy mode that compares the CRCs of two consecutive extractions. Is there any real benefit to performing a manual T+C by extracting twice and comparing files? I recall getting very infrequent CRC mismatches with EAC, and only on extremely mangled CDs. I would prefer to perform multiple extractions only when PlexTools reports errors and they are audible. Is this reasonable?
That's reasonable.
4. I am planning to extract tracks without gaps. If I'm not interested in making exact copies of my CDs, is there any benefit to extracting image + CUE sheet instead?

Plextools doesn't extract to an image and cue sheet. I'd suggest that
you make sure that you have the check for pause options set properly
when you extract.
5. I have a few CDs that produce audible clicks in trouble spots after completely "error-free" extractions (as reported by PlexTools and EAC). This means some errors can go undetected. Can I do anything to detect these errors? If I knew they existed, I could at least make a note to find a cleaner version of the CD.
I'd thoroughly check this. The only way that these errors would be
missed is if the drive's error reporting wasn't working. If you have
another drive I'd suggest trying a problem CD in that.

As far as other tips and tricks are concerned - I'd suggest using
Plextool's freedb features. By using something like %A\%C\%N%T in the
filename construction box you can automatically get Plextools to file
the tracks away in an ArtistName\AlbumTitle\TrackNumberTrackTitle
directory format. If you are on a dial-up connection then you could
download a local copy of freedb - I also found an old copy of the
database on a Nero CD that I had.

Cheers.

James.

[Graham Mayor]

James Perrett wrote: Unlike Graham, I'm more confident about Plextools' abilities. You'll be
Cheers. James.

It is not that I question Plextool's abilities - it is an excellent
application. Rather I am more comfortable working with EAC, which I find
more flexible for my requirements. Better the devil you know :)


--
<>>< ><<> ><<>
Graham Mayor
<>>< ><<> ><<>

[Derek]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I appreciate it.
Just curious but if you have the original discs why do you want to archive them in this manner?

Because the first time I converted them to MP3 using less
than stellar quality. Now I'd like to do a better job.
But as an iPod owner, I'm also tempted by AAC. This got
me thinking that new formats are likely to emerge and it
would be nice to rip my CDs once and for all and just
batch-convert them when I need to.
Personally I would rip to WAV or to Monkey's Audio APE format which EAC will handle given the appropriate codec. APE produces file sizes some 50% smaller without loss of quality (like mp3), but there is a processing overhead and you seem to be in a hurry.

I've considered using lossless compression, but I have
only about 300 discs and a couple of 250GB drives, so I
think I'm OK for space. But if it becomes an issue I will
definitely consider your suggestion.

I prefer AIFF to WAV because I can use iTunes as an ID3
editor. iTunes can add a standard ID3v2 chunk to an AIFF
file. It's just a handy way to store ID3 with lossless
audio. And because iTunes stores the whole ID3 frame, I've
had no trouble hacking open source software to extract it.
1. I plan on using my Plextor 708A. It might not be the best drive on the market, but I've seen good reviews and test scores. Is there any reason I shouldn't use it for ripping audio? (Incidentally, what is the best drive for DAE these days?) I see no reason not to use this to rip, though have not personal experience of it. It is almost certainly faster than my old Plex SCSI reader and writer which continue to provide exemplary ripping performance.

Cool.
2. I like PlexTools because it's much faster than EAC (and reported to be just as secure). But is extraction accuracy compromised by extracting at high speed (up to 17-40X CAV for the 708A)? Will I get more accurate extractions at lower speeds? Of course I will let the drive slow down when re-reading trouble spots, but should I ever intentionally extract slower? Speed is not the issue, it is error free reading that matters and how the software deals with problems as they occur. ALL CDs have errors. Most of those errors should be corrected in the ripping process. It is how you deal with the ones that aren't handles correctly that is important - and usually you don't get to know this until the disc is ripped.

That makes sense. I just wanted to make sure that the
errors that "should be corrected in the ripping process"
won't be more likely to go undetected during a faster
extraction.
3. Unlike EAC, PlexTools doesn't support a Test+Copy mode that compares the CRCs of two consecutive extractions. Is there any real benefit to performing a manual T+C by extracting twice and comparing files? I recall getting very infrequent CRC mismatches with EAC, and only on extremely mangled CDs. I would prefer to perform multiple extractions only when PlexTools reports errors and they are audible. Is this reasonable? I have used both Plextools and EAC to rip discs - and some types of disc (eg CD Extra discs) Plextools handles properly, whereas EAC is interested only in the audio - but whenever I have an audio disc to rip, I would not dream of using anything other than EAC, if only for the reason that it will report errors and identify the bits it cannot correctly handle. But then if a job is worth doing it is worth taking a little time over, and as EAC will rip as a background task in Windows, I can always do something else while the job gets done.

If the things I have read at hydrogenaudio.org can be
believed, PlexTools is just as secure as EAC (with a
Plextor drive, of course). It just happens to be faster,
and it also sports an impressive number of error correction
options. Most people seem to think it's at least as secure
as EAC. Of course I'll use EAC if it's more secure, but it
looks like I should to more research to be sure.
4. I am planning to extract tracks without gaps. If I'm not interested in making exact copies of my CDs, is there any benefit to extracting image + CUE sheet instead? I have mixed feelings on this. I tend to go for separate tracks and create my own cue sheets, if only because it allows me to make compilations later, without having to extract the tracks from the images. EAC will rip to separate folders based on the content if required (much like CDex does). Setting up the filing system manually often takes as long at the ripping so the ability of the software to do it for you is an advantage. 5. I have a few CDs that produce audible clicks in trouble spots after completely "error-free" extractions (as reported by PlexTools and EAC). This means some errors can go undetected. Can I do anything to detect these errors? If I knew they existed, I could at least make a note to find a cleaner version of the CD. I have never known EAC produce clicks that weren't recorded on the original disc as clicks, without reporting that it dealt with errors. Were these clicks on the WAV file or on a disc burned from the file(s) which would suggest an altogether different problem.

I have a small number of damaged CDs (ripped in EAC using
secure mode and test+copy) that produce audible artifacts
in the WAV -- clearly caused by scratches on the CD, IMO.

I recently re-ripped these problem tracks using both EAC
and PlexTools and neither reported a problem (track quality
= 100%) or slowed down to take another peek. But the
clicks & pops persist.

Mind you this happens quite infrequently, but it does
happen. I think it's just a consequence of (a) some errors
being consistent (the same bogus data gets read every time)
and (b) the drive's ability to detect errors is not 100%.
I'm just speculating, of course.
6. Currently my 708A is a slave on the secondary IDE channel (a hard drive is the master). I've had NO problems with this setup, but should I take any precautions to help ensure accurate extraction -- perhaps by making the 708A a master or giving it the channel to itself? Are IDE problems a source of subtle, hard to detect errors, or obvious problems like the drive just not working? It shouldn't make any difference which IDE port is used.

That's exactly what I suspected, but in my searching I have
found a few posts suggesting IDE configuration can be a
problem sometimes. It's never mattered to me.
7. Any other tips or tricks for high-quality DAE? Take your time :)

I will. :)

And thanks again for taking the time to respond.

[Luthier]

Just curios what is EAC?

Colin


"Graham Mayor" <gmayor@noonehome.com> wrote in message
news:c3mo4p$29clu9$1@ID-88807.news.uni-berlin.de... James Perrett wrote: Unlike Graham, I'm more confident about Plextools' abilities. You'll be Cheers. James. It is not that I question Plextool's abilities - it is an excellent application. Rather I am more comfortable working with EAC, which I find more flexible for my requirements. Better the devil you know :) -- <>>< ><<> ><<> Graham Mayor <>>< ><<> ><<>

[Dane Beko]

In a message about "Re: Ripping audio CDs: Settings? 708A? PlexTools? Speed?",
Colin wrote:
Just curios what is EAC?

It's a program used to extract audio from a CD. I use CDex myself but
EAC gets good reviews.

--
MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

[Luthier]

Thanks for the reply, is there a reason it can't be done with Nero or Easy
CD Creator? Sorry if I sound dumb about this but this is the first I've
heard about it.

Colin

"Dane Beko" <dbeko@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:5O88c.36016$%06.8512@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... In a message about "Re: Ripping audio CDs: Settings? 708A? PlexTools?
Speed?", Colin wrote: Just curios what is EAC? It's a program used to extract audio from a CD. I use CDex myself but EAC gets good reviews. -- MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

[Graham Mayor]

Exact Audio Copy is a high quality ripping tool designed to extract audio
data under difficult conditions.

My daughter bought me a protected disc for my birthday, which Nero would not
even look at. EAC ripped all but the final track, and I was able to record
that final track in real time using the software player on the disc - so
much for copy protection! (Given the outrageous prices we pay for these
morons to add copy protection that will not work to discs, I am not going to
leave the original discs in the car for someone to steal).

Jacks-of-All-Trades apps like Nero and EZCD will certainly rip audio, but
they offer nothing like the performance of EAC. If you are at all serious
about audio work, you need to investigate further
www.exactaudiocopy.org

--
<>>< ><<> ><<>
Graham Mayor
<>>< ><<> ><<>




Colin wrote: Thanks for the reply, is there a reason it can't be done with Nero or Easy CD Creator? Sorry if I sound dumb about this but this is the first I've heard about it. Colin "Dane Beko" <dbeko@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5O88c.36016$%06.8512@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... In a message about "Re: Ripping audio CDs: Settings? 708A? PlexTools? Speed?", Colin wrote: Just curios what is EAC? It's a program used to extract audio from a CD. I use CDex myself but EAC gets good reviews. -- MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

[Dane Beko]

In a message about "Re: Ripping audio CDs: Settings? 708A? PlexTools? Speed?",
Colin wrote:
Thanks for the reply, is there a reason it can't be done with Nero or Easy CD Creator? Sorry if I sound dumb about this but this is the first I've heard about it.

I can't speak to Easy CD Creator because I've never used it. But Nero
can extract audio from the CD, yes. In Nero 5.5 (I'm sure it's the
same in 6.0), you would go to "Recorder/Save Tracks" off the main
menu. Nero brings up a window where you can connect to a CDDB server
and load in track names, etc., if possible. Then you can save all
tracks or individual ones.

--
MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

[Graham Mayor]

Dane Beko wrote: In a message about "Re: Ripping audio CDs: Settings? 708A? PlexTools? Speed?", Colin wrote: Thanks for the reply, is there a reason it can't be done with Nero or Easy CD Creator? Sorry if I sound dumb about this but this is the first I've heard about it. I can't speak to Easy CD Creator because I've never used it. But Nero can extract audio from the CD, yes. In Nero 5.5 (I'm sure it's the same in 6.0), you would go to "Recorder/Save Tracks" off the main menu. Nero brings up a window where you can connect to a CDDB server and load in track names, etc., if possible. Then you can save all tracks or individual ones.

Both Nero and EZCD can do this, but that isn't the point. It is the extra
layer of error handling that EAC provides that makes it the better product
for this. Also Nero has a bad habit (in some versions at least) of
prematurely chopping bits off the ends of ripped files.

--
<>>< ><<> ><<>
Graham Mayor
<>>< ><<> ><<>

[James Perrett]

Dane Beko wrote: In a message about "Re: Ripping audio CDs: Settings? 708A? PlexTools? Speed?", Colin wrote: Thanks for the reply, is there a reason it can't be done with Nero or Easy CD Creator? Sorry if I sound dumb about this but this is the first I've heard about it. I can't speak to Easy CD Creator because I've never used it. But Nero can extract audio from the CD, yes. In Nero 5.5 (I'm sure it's the same in 6.0), you would go to "Recorder/Save Tracks" off the main menu. Nero brings up a window where you can connect to a CDDB server and load in track names, etc., if possible. Then you can save all tracks or individual ones.

Audio CD's don't have as many error correction layers as data CD's. The
standard set of commands that are used by software to talk to the CD
drive are intended to be used for reading data CD's rather than audio
CD's so they assume that the drive is going to present the software with
the correct data. Some drives are capable of supplying additional error
information but most software just ignores this as it isn't part of the
standard specification. EAC was written to allow almost any drive to be
used for audio extraction. It assumes that the drive cannot supply error
information so it tries to check for errors itself by reading the same
portion of data a number of times. If it always extracts identical data
then it assumes that the data is being read correctly.

Plextools works a little differently as Plextor have implemented the
additional error flagging in most of their drives. If the drive detects
an error then it will tell Plextools and Plextools will then try to
re-read the data at a slower speed. If it cannot read the data without
an error it will resort to a similar system of multiple reads that EAC
uses.

EAC has also been extended to read the additional error flags so there
should be little speed difference between the two programs nowadays.

If you are trying to use any other software then look for an option to
read C2 error flags. If the software doesn't have this option then it is
unlikely to be able to do accurate audio extraction with less than
perfect discs.

Cheers.

James.

[Luthier]

Thanks for the info. I didn't realize they were copy protecting audio cd's.
at least I haven't run into a problem copying disks using creator and nero.
I have a Plextor 708A and a Plextor 482448A none of which came with
plextools. Do you know how I can get plextools?

Thanks again
Colin

"James Perrett" <James.R.Perrett@soc.soton.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:406197C6.9AC237BE@soc.soton.ac.uk... Dane Beko wrote: In a message about "Re: Ripping audio CDs: Settings? 708A? PlexTools?
Speed?", Colin wrote: Thanks for the reply, is there a reason it can't be done with Nero or Easy CD Creator? Sorry if I sound dumb about this but this is the first I've heard about it. I can't speak to Easy CD Creator because I've never used it. But Nero can extract audio from the CD, yes. In Nero 5.5 (I'm sure it's the same in 6.0), you would go to "Recorder/Save Tracks" off the main menu. Nero brings up a window where you can connect to a CDDB server and load in track names, etc., if possible. Then you can save all tracks or individual ones. Audio CD's don't have as many error correction layers as data CD's. The standard set of commands that are used by software to talk to the CD drive are intended to be used for reading data CD's rather than audio CD's so they assume that the drive is going to present the software with the correct data. Some drives are capable of supplying additional error information but most software just ignores this as it isn't part of the standard specification. EAC was written to allow almost any drive to be used for audio extraction. It assumes that the drive cannot supply error information so it tries to check for errors itself by reading the same portion of data a number of times. If it always extracts identical data then it assumes that the data is being read correctly. Plextools works a little differently as Plextor have implemented the additional error flagging in most of their drives. If the drive detects an error then it will tell Plextools and Plextools will then try to re-read the data at a slower speed. If it cannot read the data without an error it will resort to a similar system of multiple reads that EAC uses. EAC has also been extended to read the additional error flags so there should be little speed difference between the two programs nowadays. If you are trying to use any other software then look for an option to read C2 error flags. If the software doesn't have this option then it is unlikely to be able to do accurate audio extraction with less than perfect discs. Cheers. James.

[Tim Kroesen]

On the other hand when ripping a *decent* looking disc my experience
indicated that any c2 errors are rare; therefore look for other things
when selecting a ripper too, rather than just error handling. Feurio is
regarded as the best audio tool by many; you may select by option how
many times it will re-read an error; all c2 errors it encounters will be
logged for your review if any (drive dependant). The few times it
occurred for me the errors were inaudible anyway. EAC is a good program
for troublesome discs; Feurio IMO is better for every day average use...
Free unrestricted demo at www.feurio.com

Tim K

"James Perrett" <James.R.Perrett@soc.soton.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:406197C6.9AC237BE@soc.soton.ac.uk... Dane Beko wrote: In a message about "Re: Ripping audio CDs: Settings? 708A?
PlexTools? Speed?", Colin wrote: Thanks for the reply, is there a reason it can't be done with
Nero or Easy CD Creator? Sorry if I sound dumb about this but this is the first I've heard about it. I can't speak to Easy CD Creator because I've never used it. But
Nero can extract audio from the CD, yes. In Nero 5.5 (I'm sure it's the same in 6.0), you would go to "Recorder/Save Tracks" off the main menu. Nero brings up a window where you can connect to a CDDB server and load in track names, etc., if possible. Then you can save all tracks or individual ones. Audio CD's don't have as many error correction layers as data CD's.
The standard set of commands that are used by software to talk to the CD drive are intended to be used for reading data CD's rather than audio CD's so they assume that the drive is going to present the software
with the correct data. Some drives are capable of supplying additional
error information but most software just ignores this as it isn't part of
the standard specification. EAC was written to allow almost any drive to
be used for audio extraction. It assumes that the drive cannot supply
error information so it tries to check for errors itself by reading the same portion of data a number of times. If it always extracts identical
data then it assumes that the data is being read correctly. Plextools works a little differently as Plextor have implemented the additional error flagging in most of their drives. If the drive
detects an error then it will tell Plextools and Plextools will then try to re-read the data at a slower speed. If it cannot read the data without an error it will resort to a similar system of multiple reads that EAC uses. EAC has also been extended to read the additional error flags so there should be little speed difference between the two programs nowadays. If you are trying to use any other software then look for an option to read C2 error flags. If the software doesn't have this option then it
is unlikely to be able to do accurate audio extraction with less than perfect discs. Cheers. James.

[Dane Beko]

In a message about "Re: Ripping audio CDs: Settings? 708A? PlexTools? Speed?",
Graham Mayor wrote:
Both Nero and EZCD can do this, but that isn't the point. It is the extra layer of error handling that EAC provides that makes it the better product for this.

True and that's why I use CDex myself and haven't had any problems.
But the original poster wanted to know how to do it in Nero and I
obliged. :-)

--
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

[James Perrett]

Colin wrote: Thanks for the info. I didn't realize they were copy protecting audio cd's. at least I haven't run into a problem copying disks using creator and nero. I have a Plextor 708A and a Plextor 482448A none of which came with plextools. Do you know how I can get plextools?

It isn't officially available in North America unless you buy the
Premium drive. You might try doing a Google Groups search because I
believe someone on this group posted a way to install an update without
having the full version first.

Cheers.

James.

[James Perrett]

Tim Kroesen wrote:
EAC is a good program for troublesome discs; Feurio IMO is better for every day average use... Free unrestricted demo at www.feurio.com Tim K

I had forgotten about Feurio - I find it more difficult to use for
extraction (it feels pedantic) but that's probably because I'm so used
to the way other software works. I'm sure that once you get used to it
then it is fine.

The important thing is that it recognises C2 errors - these may be rare
but I find that a software/hardware combination that recognises them
tends to work better anyway.

Cheers.

James.

[Tim Kroesen]

It's as easy as drag and drop if you like... I find EAC *much*
trickier; but as you say; 'what you're used to'. Feurio really shines
when it comes to tweaking and assembling wav's into a compilation, or
straight audio disc copies; particularly on the fly...

Tim K

"James Perrett" <James.R.Perrett@soc.soton.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:4062EF76.A3D1DABF@soc.soton.ac.uk... Tim Kroesen wrote: EAC is a good program for troublesome discs; Feurio IMO is better for every day average
use... Free unrestricted demo at www.feurio.com Tim K I had forgotten about Feurio - I find it more difficult to use for extraction (it feels pedantic) but that's probably because I'm so used to the way other software works. I'm sure that once you get used to it then it is fine. The important thing is that it recognises C2 errors - these may be
rare but I find that a software/hardware combination that recognises them tends to work better anyway. Cheers. James.