The cat weed on my A4

[John Ferguson]

In article <4c17c5c4femfox@argonet.co.uk>
Martyn Fox <mfox@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
I moved my A4 to the floor to make room for my Iyonix and discovered this afternoon that our cat appears to have urinated on it.

Our eldest cat did this to a Microvitec Cub many moons ago when they were
both in their youth.
I've cleaned up the outside but the machine will not boot up. I can hear the hard disc run but there is nothing on the display and no sign of bootup activity. Connecting the mains PSU and my AFK60 monitor reveals that some kind of video is being produced but it is only unlocked black.

I was fortunate in that the monitor appeared to be alright, however it
failed a month or so later. Some of the urine had made it through the
vents causing corrosion to some of the components. It was repairable
though.
The LED with a battery symbol lights up red, which is something I've never seen it do before. Does that indicate a short circuit? Please could someone either direct me to a website or give me some advice on how to safely open up the machine to inspect the inside? Would it be safer for me to ask someone such as CJE Micro's for help?

I can't help with your particular problem, but if urine has gotten inside
then, going by my own experience, it's not going to do a whole lot of
good.
Our cat is 18 years old, which is very old for a cat, and getting very doddery. I'm trying to resist the temptation to hasten its demise.

My cat is now approaching 20, has only 3 legs, is deaf, going senile and
spends the majority of the day asleep in the dirt box (go figure), but
I wouldn't want to be without her :-)

John
--
John Ferguson
Taunton, Somerset, England

[Ian Molton]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 00:36:00 +0100
John Ferguson <john@fergusn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I can't help with your particular problem, but if urine has gotten inside then, going by my own experience, it's not going to do a whole lot of good.

I would suggest dismantling the machine, and washing it.

with the exception of the harddisc, keyboard, and LCD you can probably submerge the entire of the rest of the machine (at your risk, not mine!).

make sure the battery AND the CMOS backup power (is it a battery in the A4?) are disconnected.

wash it thoroughly, plenty of agitation, and some washing up liquid. use a toothbrush for the worst bits.

THOROUGHLY rinse after to remove all trace of the washing up liquid, and dry by placing on a warm radiator for at LEAST a day (water gets under the PLCC chips)

resist all temptation to power up until you are certain it is dry.

it would probably not be a bad idea to desocket any socketed chips and apply electrolube to the socket, to help prevent corrosion.

good luck.

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

[Martyn Fox]

In article <ant2610200b0sMy2@riscpc.local.net>, Stephen Parkin
<stephen@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
... while saying "Do not leave laptops on the floor."

Hindsight is a powerful thing!

Martyn

--
_
|\/| _ _ -+- _ |_ _ Windsor, Berks. UK
| | (_| | | (_| | ) | (_) )( mfox@argonet.co.uk
ZFC La _| Iyonix pc with 80321 and RISC OS - a Windoze-free zone!

[John Williams]

In article <4c181897a9mfox@argonet.co.uk>,
Martyn Fox <mfox@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
... while saying "Do not leave laptops on the floor."
Hindsight is a powerful thing!

Yes, cats do usually back-up to things to do that!

It has long been my understanding that cat-squirt is one of the most
corrosive substances existing towards metals. Possibly worse even than
cola.

John

--
I'm not really indecisive, am I? *

|| John Williams || Wirral, Merseyside, UK
|| ucebin@tiscali.co.uk replace ucebin by johnrwilliams
|| for speediest attention!

[Steven Pampling]

In article <4c182002b6ucebin@tiscali.co.uk>,
John Williams <ucebin@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: In article <4c181897a9mfox@argonet.co.uk>, Martyn Fox <mfox@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
... while saying "Do not leave laptops on the floor."
Hindsight is a powerful thing!
Yes, cats do usually back-up to things to do that!
It has long been my understanding that cat-squirt is one of the most corrosive substances existing towards metals. Possibly worse even than cola.

Try blood.

I once opened a syringe driver (medical kit) that the nice nurse had
forgotten to tell us the patient had haemorrhaged over and when I poured
out the red stuff the only thing left in there was the remnant of the motor
the circuit board (minus all tracks) and the encapsulated parts of the
electronic components.

Thinking about it I believe I'd be happier handling something covered in
catty wee.

[Ian Molton]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 19:32:22 +0100
Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
Try blood. I once opened a syringe driver (medical kit) that the nice nurse had forgotten to tell us the patient had haemorrhaged over and when I poured out the red stuff the only thing left in there was the remnant of the motor the circuit board (minus all tracks) and the encapsulated parts of the electronic components.

wow. nasty :)

wonder why its so evil? I know haemoglobin has Fe at its core, perhaps something to do with it?

Reminds me of ferric chloride.

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

[Ian K (N)]

In article <4c18300368steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk>,
Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk> wrote: In article <4c182002b6ucebin@tiscali.co.uk>, John Williams <ucebin@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: In article <4c181897a9mfox@argonet.co.uk>, Martyn Fox <mfox@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> ... while saying "Do not leave laptops on the floor."
Hindsight is a powerful thing!
Yes, cats do usually back-up to things to do that!
It has long been my understanding that cat-squirt is one of the most corrosive substances existing towards metals. Possibly worse even than cola.
Try blood.
I once opened a syringe driver (medical kit) that the nice nurse had forgotten to tell us the patient had haemorrhaged over and when I poured out the red stuff the only thing left in there was the remnant of the motor the circuit board (minus all tracks) and the encapsulated parts of the electronic components.
Thinking about it I believe I'd be happier handling something covered in catty wee.

EERLUGHH!

That reminds me of a somewhat more holism incident I had a while back with
a litre of white spirit that a builder had left in a false sealing. It had
fallen over desolved the false sealing, covered the customers copier below
and desolved several of it's covers. Amazingly after I washed off the bits
of false sealing and white spirit from the PCB's and other components and
fitted some new covers it worked fine!

Regards
Ian K


* Inventor of radio controlled knicker elastic!

[Ian Molton]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:35:43 +0100
"Ian K (N)" <news@iank.org.uk> wrote:
I had a while back with a litre of white spirit that a builder had left in a false sealing.
^^^^^^^^

I'd imagine a false sealing would be prone to leakage ;-)

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with
ketchup.

[Craig Benton]

In message <20030726011147.6febcba9.spyro@f2s.com>
Ian Molton <spyro@f2s.com> wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 00:36:00 +0100 John Ferguson <john@fergusn.demon.co.uk> wrote: I can't help with your particular problem, but if urine has gotten inside then, going by my own experience, it's not going to do a whole lot of good. I would suggest dismantling the machine, and washing it. with the exception of the harddisc, keyboard, and LCD you can probably submerge the entire of the rest of the machine (at your risk, not mine!). make sure the battery AND the CMOS backup power (is it a battery in the A4?) are disconnected. wash it thoroughly, plenty of agitation, and some washing up liquid. use a toothbrush for the worst bits. THOROUGHLY rinse after to remove all trace of the washing up liquid, and dry by placing on a warm radiator for at LEAST a day (water gets under the PLCC chips) resist all temptation to power up until you are certain it is dry. it would probably not be a bad idea to desocket any socketed chips and apply electrolube to the socket, to help prevent corrosion. good luck.
Urine contains amonia which is highly corrosive and means death to PCB's and
electronics especially when they are switched ON!
I would strongly advise that you DO NOT wash the keyboard in water as it has
a membrane that will retain water for a very long time even if allowed to
'dry'.
The first thing you should do is not switch on anymore.
It is important that you are you are in a well venilated area.
Clean all of the disassembled parts using a powerfull aerosol of pure
alcohol such as IPA (from CPC, computer shops, Maplin etc) making sure that
you focus the spray pipe into all the nooks and crannies in between IC pins
etc.
The IPA will instantly stop corrosion and neutralise the smell of amonia and
multiplying bacteria.
You may have to use a stiff brush such as a record needle cleaning brush to
get rid of stubborn corrosion. Re-spray such areas.
Position all the parts so that the IPA is allowed to drain away eg onto a
towel.
Let the parts dry thoroughly using a heat source, as previously suggested,
such as a radiator but best of all use a hair dryer or a heat gun set on low
to blast away and evaporate any IPA or moisture.
Only when you are sure that the parts are dry should you consider
re-assembly and power-up. Drying could take up to two days.
I am a music service engineer with over 15 years experience and regularly
have to rescue keyboards and mixing desks from over indulgence in lager and
bacardi-coke etc. which the users seem to think the equipment likes having
poured into it.
Craig.
(not bitter)

[Martyn Fox]

In article <20030727140808.06052086.spyro@f2s.com>, Ian Molton
<spyro@f2s.com> wrote:
One other point is that cat piss is hygroscopic (sp?) - ie. it attracts water. If you dont remove EVERY LAST TRACE of it, you will find the parts will develop a stickiness that is just as corrosive as before.

There was a small damp patch on one of the "VLSI-ARM" ICs (either IC39 or
IC41, according to the PCB labelling), the one furthest to the left and
nearest the LCD connectors.

There was no obvious sign of dampness on the PCB surrounding the IC but I
wiped over the area with a damp paper towel, then again with a dry one.

There was clearly no prospect of cleaning underneath the IC, which was
soldered in.

There seemed to be a small amount of debris of some sort by the rear of the
two lid cable sockets which made me wonder if there had been some burning
there and if some of the urine might have run down the ribbon cable.

It still didn't work and there was a smell of burning a few seconds after
switching on.

It was one of a batch that KudlianSoft were selling at the RISC OS Midlands
show. I've emailed them to ask if they have any left.

My six-way anti-surge socket strip had also given up the ghost earlier when I
switched on. It also was on the floor under the computer table. I'd assumed
that it was old age but, if the cat was responsible, it's lucky that it
wasn't powered up at the time.

I've now fitted two four-way anti-surge socket strips (15 ukp each). Perhaps
I'd better find a way of mounting them off the floor ...

Martyn

--
_
|\/| _ _ -+- _ |_ _ Windsor, Berks. UK
| | (_| | | (_| | ) | (_) )( mfox@argonet.co.uk
ZFC La _| Iyonix pc with 80321 and RISC OS - a Windoze-free zone!

[Jochen Lueg]

In article <83db4a184c.ri48000147@craigb.co.uk>, Craig Benton
<craig@craigb.co.uk> wrote:. I am a music service engineer with over 15 years experience and regularly have to rescue keyboards and mixing desks from over indulgence in lager and bacardi-coke etc. which the users seem to think the equipment likes having poured into it. Craig. (not bitter)

Wouldn't bitter have the same effect as lager?

Jochen

--

-----------------------------------------------
Jochen Lueg jochen.lueg@argonet.co.uk
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/tudor

[Martyn Fox]

In article <83db4a184c.ri48000147@craigb.co.uk>, Craig Benton
<craig@craigb.co.uk> wrote:
I am a music service engineer with over 15 years experience and regularly have to rescue keyboards and mixing desks from over indulgence in lager and bacardi-coke etc. which the users seem to think the equipment likes having poured into it.

Also a major hazard in television transmission control departments where such
equipment is permanently on-air.

The worst sin of all is spilling something into a mixing desk and not telling
anybody.

Martyn

--
_
|\/| _ _ -+- _ |_ _ Windsor, Berks. UK
| | (_| | | (_| | ) | (_) )( mfox@argonet.co.uk
ZFC La _| Iyonix pc with 80321 and RISC OS - a Windoze-free zone!

[VinceH (real address)]

In article <4c19c71670steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk>,
Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
people with working taste buds might actually suggest that there was little difference between "lager" and cat wee.

s/people with working taste buds/people with working
taste buds who have actually tasted cat wee/

?

VinceH

--
VinceH can be found in the vicinity of http://www.vinceh.com
Soft Rock Software can be found around http://www.softrock.co.uk
WebChange2 for RISC OS & Windows is at http://www.webchange.co.uk

[Dave Barnett]

In <4c19c71670steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk> Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk> ritted:
In article <4c19a9e3ectudor@argonet.co.uk>, Jochen Lueg <tudor@argonet.co.uk> wrote: In article <83db4a184c.ri48000147@craigb.co.uk>, Craig Benton <craig@craigb.co.uk> wrote:. I am a music service engineer with over 15 years experience and regularly have to rescue keyboards and mixing desks from over indulgence in lager and bacardi-coke etc. which the users seem to think the equipment likes having poured into it. Craig. (not bitter) Wouldn't bitter have the same effect as lager? While reminding all present that "lager" is not the same as "lagered beer" it should be pointed out that people with working taste buds might actually suggest that there was little difference between "lager" and cat wee.

:-) Include most 'beers' in USA in this comparison
In normal circumstances only the low serving temperature of the former hides the similarity. Proper lagered beer is quite pleasant.
If only more folk recognised the difference that might hit the big
chemical companies that call themselves brewers in the balance sheet and
give proper brewers a more level playing field in which to compete.

--
Dave

[Richard Kilpatrick]

In article <4c19d38a02mfox@argonet.co.uk>, Martyn Fox
<mfox@argonet.co.uk> writesThe worst sin of all is spilling something into a mixing desk and not tellinganybody.

At a gig, someone spilled a pint in my dad's powered mixer. Without
thinking, I pulled the plug right away, ran back to the house with the
desk, and shoved it under the hose until it was thoroughly drenched
through - inside and out. Then left it in the airing cupboard to dry out
for 48 hours.

No damage at all. No corrosion internally.

I've saved computer keyboards this way, too - I decided it was safe
after I saw some kids up the road 'washing' a Dragon 32 computer they
had found in the attic, and gave them a broken Apple ][ to play with
instead. After drying, the Dragon worked perfectly :)

Richard
--
Acorn 8-bits, 32-bits, some in bits... Amigas, ST/E |\ _,,,---,,_
YIS-805, iBook, G4, Dell P410, Sinclairs, ACW/ABC210 /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
http://www.dmc12.demon.co.uk/retrotech/ |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'::.
Music? http://www.mp3.com/RichardKilpatrick/ '----''(_/--' `-'\_)Morticia

[Reg Hems]

In article <4c19c71670steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk> Steven Pampling wrote: In article <4c19a9e3ectudor@argonet.co.uk> Jochen Lueg wrote:
Wouldn't bitter have the same effect as lager?
While reminding all present that "lager" is not the same as "lagered beer" it should be pointed out that people with working taste buds might actually suggest that there was little difference between "lager" and cat wee. In normal circumstances only the low serving temperature of the former hides the similarity.
Proper lagered beer is quite pleasant.

What is this that you call lager (bottom fermented?) I always thought that
it was supposed to be the equivalent of Pilsner but it never seemed to
taste like the proper Czech stuff. But perhaps I'm confused by this
American stuff misrepresented as Budweiser.

In the mid 50s I worked in Werdohl in Germany (Jochen will know) and a
wedding, a child, birthday, traditionally required a case of Krombacher
Pilsner. I still have some glasses. A few months ago I found Krombacher in
Tesco's. It tasted exactly the way I remembered it.

* Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice.
--
Reg Hems ZFC LXX2 \_
BBC B Micro Iss.3&7 \_
Atomwide Serial board \_
Diamond SupraExpress 56 \_
ARM3 PC A420 IDE-SCSI 8Mb \_
reghems@argonet.co.uk |
Uploaded on Thu,31 Jul 2003.00:13

[Steven Pampling]

In article <dcf70b1a4c.Dave@davebarnett.me.uk>, Dave Barnett
<dave@d-barnett.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: In <4c19c71670steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk> Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk> ritted:

[Snip]
While reminding all present that "lager" is not the same as "lagered beer" it should be pointed out that people with working taste buds might actually suggest that there was little difference between "lager" and cat wee.
:-) Include most 'beers' in USA in this comparison

Should be a few interesting US ones in Olympia next week :-)

Along with quite a few interesting German, Belgian, etc

Oh yes, and a rather large number of British beers.[1]
In normal circumstances only the low serving temperature of the former hides the similarity.
Proper lagered beer is quite pleasant.
If only more folk recognised the difference that might hit the big chemical companies that call themselves brewers in the balance sheet and give proper brewers a more level playing field in which to compete.

Would that be a CAMRA viewpoint, brewers viewpoint, or a discerning drinks
viewpoint?

[1]Great British Beer Festival 5th-9th August, Kensington Olympia.

[Sandy Morton]

In article <4c19d38a02mfox@argonet.co.uk>, Martyn Fox <mfox@argonet.co.uk>
wrote: The worst sin of all is spilling something into a mixing desk and not telling anybody.

Such a waste.

--
A T (Sandy) Morton
on the Bicycle Island
In the Global Village
http://www.sandymillport.fsnet.co.uk

[Dave Barnett]

In <4c1a51c2a5steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk> Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk> ritted:
In article <dcf70b1a4c.Dave@davebarnett.me.uk>, Dave Barnett <dave@d-barnett.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: In <4c19c71670steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk> Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk> ritted: [Snip] While reminding all present that "lager" is not the same as "lagered beer" it should be pointed out that people with working taste buds might actually suggest that there was little difference between "lager" and cat wee. :-) Include most 'beers' in USA in this comparison Should be a few interesting US ones in Olympia next week :-) Along with quite a few interesting German, Belgian, etc Oh yes, and a rather large number of British beers.[1] In normal circumstances only the low serving temperature of the former hides the similarity. Proper lagered beer is quite pleasant. If only more folk recognised the difference that might hit the big chemical companies that call themselves brewers in the balance sheet and give proper brewers a more level playing field in which to compete. Would that be a CAMRA viewpoint, brewers viewpoint, or a discerning drinks viewpoint?
Yes

--
Dave

[Steven Pampling]

In article <27b98b1a4c.Dave@davebarnett.me.uk>, Dave Barnett
<dave@d-barnett.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: Would that be a CAMRA viewpoint, brewers viewpoint, or a discerning drinks viewpoint? Yes

Clearly all three. :-)

Anyway, I now need to be somewhere else otherwise the event might have a
few problems...

In article <4c1a98cfc4steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk>, Steven Pampling
<steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk> wrote: In article <4c1a495f47reghems@argonet.co.uk>, Reg Hems <reghems@nospam.invalid> wrote:
What is this that you call lager (bottom fermented?)
Well along with other CAMRA members I tend to call it many things and "lagerade" is probably the most inoffensive comment.
What the *brewers* tend to call "lager" is actually a really bad chemical and cheap ingredient concoction designed to be part brewed/part manufactured to visually resemble a Pilsner style beer which should (for the real thing) be cool stored (lagered) for a period after brewing. They don't and that's just another in the long list of reasons why it comes out as you say below:
[snipped]

Just come upon the development of this thread (which has memories of old
ZFC proaganda postings! :-) ) and feel that I really must comment!

Steve, with your broad wielding of the tar brush above, it would be useful
if you (as apparently the only surviving poster here with any, if
sometimes flawed, knowledge of brewing :-) ) could enlighten me on one or
two things that seem to have "changed" since I retired from active brewing
12 years ago.

Chemical? A very emotive catch-all for almost any ingredient surely? Try
to be specific and I can then comment.

Cheap ingredients? What ingredients and cheap c.f. which others?

Part brewed/part manufactured? Brewing is a form of manufacturing isn't
it? More emotive double speak methinks. Please discuss and elaborate! :-)

Brewers now do *not* cold store beers/lagers intended for packaging
(keg/can/bottle)??? This is real news for me and I do try to keep up with
modern developments in a small way! Please enlighten me.

As a sweetener, I do agree with you that UK produced lagers are often
inferior (and often weaker for a variety of reasons) to continental
varieties. Some continental can/bottle 'session' lagers are however very
indifferent IMHO. I also agree wholeheartedly re the poor quality of
Budweiser in particular (UK or USA) [snipped above]. A triumph of
marketing over good taste!

Cheers (again)

Malcolm

--
Malcolm Davies ** Tel/Fax : +44 (0)1283 575 345 **
Burton on Trent, Staffs ** Email : mdavies@DON'TSPAM.net **
** To mail_me@home change 'mdavies@DON'TSPAM' to 'mdavies@ukgateway' **

[Adam Maye]

Jochen Lueg did inscribe in digital form this eloquent missive:
In article <4c1a495f47reghems@argonet.co.uk>, Reg Hems <reghems@nospam.invalid> wrote: In the mid 50s I worked in Werdohl in Germany (Jochen will know) and a wedding, a child, birthday, traditionally required a case of Krombacher Pilsner. I still have some glasses. A few months ago I found Krombacher in Tesco's. It tasted exactly the way I remembered it. Ah, for one glorious month when Tesco opened in Limavady they sold Krombacher Pilsner. Even though it was in tins it was delicious, I quite agree with you there Reg. Now you can only get the usual junk and some totally over-priced Becks. Jochen

Ask them to stock it, and they just might do it. It works in Dungannon ;)

Adam

[Chris Hall]

In message <4c182002b6ucebin@tiscali.co.uk>
John Williams <ucebin@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
In article <4c181897a9mfox@argonet.co.uk>, Martyn Fox <mfox@argonet.co.uk> wrote: ... while saying "Do not leave laptops on the floor." Hindsight is a powerful thing! Yes, cats do usually back-up to things to do that! It has long been my understanding that cat-squirt is one of the most corrosive substances existing towards metals. Possibly worse even than cola.
Perhaps for corrosive effect, Yes, but judging by the
taste of Coca Cola it could not taste worse.

John

--
Chris Hall <sandt@freeuk.com>

[Martyn Fox]

In article <3513f81a4c.chris@sandt.freeuk.com>, Chris Hall <sandt@freeuk.com>
wrote:
... but judging by the taste of Coca Cola it could not taste worse.

Pepsi?

Martyn

--
_
|\/| _ _ -+- _ |_ _ Windsor, Berks. UK
| | (_| | | (_| | ) | (_) )( mfox@argonet.co.uk
ZFC La _| Iyonix pc with 80321 and RISC OS - a Windoze-free zone!

[Paul Floyd]

Martyn Fox wrote:
In article <3513f81a4c.chris@sandt.freeuk.com>, Chris Hall <sandt@freeuk.com> wrote: ... but judging by the taste of Coca Cola it could not taste worse. Pepsi?

There's a discernable difference between the two?

[Jochen Lueg]

In article <vfrWa.3$eD2.113@news.oracle.com>,
James Sargent <root@127.0.0.1> wrote: Martyn Fox wrote:
In article <3513f81a4c.chris@sandt.freeuk.com>, Chris Hall <sandt@freeuk.com> wrote: ... but judging by the taste of Coca Cola it could not taste worse. Pepsi?
There's a discernable difference between the two?

I think the tins are different.

Jochen

--

-----------------------------------------------
Jochen Lueg jochen.lueg@argonet.co.uk
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/tudor

[Wendy]

In message <4c1aac99b9mdavies@DON'TSPAM.net>
<mdavies@DON'TSPAM.net> wrote:
In article <4c1a98cfc4steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk>, Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@argonet.co.uk> wrote: In article <4c1a495f47reghems@argonet.co.uk>, Reg Hems <reghems@nospam.invalid> wrote: What is this that you call lager (bottom fermented?) Well along with other CAMRA members I tend to call it many things and "lagerade" is probably the most inoffensive comment. What the *brewers* tend to call "lager" is actually a really bad chemical and cheap ingredient concoction designed to be part brewed/part manufactured to visually resemble a Pilsner style beer which should (for the real thing) be cool stored (lagered) for a period after brewing. They don't and that's just another in the long list of reasons why it comes out as you say below:
[snipped]
As a sweetener, I do agree with you that UK produced lagers are often inferior (and often weaker for a variety of reasons) to continental varieties. Some continental can/bottle 'session' lagers are however very indifferent IMHO. I also agree wholeheartedly re the poor quality of Budweiser in particular (UK or USA) [snipped above]. A triumph of marketing over good taste!

Stella and Hoegaarden in the UK do not remotely resemble the same products
here. I assume it is the dreaded 'brewed under licence' tag that makes the
difference.

Wendy

[John Williams]

In article <4c1b1e8c0dtudor@argonet.co.uk>,
Jochen Lueg <tudor@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
I think the tins are different.

If my original proposition concerning their corrosivity is correct, how do
the tins (cans) survive?

Should we be making computer parts out of that?

John

--
This tagline has been removed to save bandwidth *

|| John Williams || Wirral, Merseyside, UK
|| ucebin@tiscali.co.uk replace ucebin by johnrwilliams
|| for speediest attention!

[Adam Maye]

John Williams did inscribe in digital form this eloquent missive:
In article <4c1b1e8c0dtudor@argonet.co.uk>, Jochen Lueg <tudor@argonet.co.uk> wrote: I think the tins are different. If my original proposition concerning their corrosivity is correct, how do the tins (cans) survive? Should we be making computer parts out of that? John

Hluminium is highly resistant to corrosion. Rather than oxidising in flakes
like iron, which therefore lets in air and water and causes an endless
cycle of rusting, a smooth, even layer of aluminium oxide is formed on the
surface. This protects the metal below from further corrosion :) .

Adam

[Martyn Fox]

In article <vfrWa.3$eD2.113@news.oracle.com>, James Sargent <root@127.0.0.1>
wrote:
Pepsi?
There's a discernable difference between the two?

I believe I can tell the difference and I prefer Coca Cola.

It's survived most of the last century. somebody must like it.

Martyn

--
_
|\/| _ _ -+- _ |_ _ Windsor, Berks. UK
| | (_| | | (_| | ) | (_) )( mfox@argonet.co.uk
ZFC La _| Iyonix pc with 80321 and RISC OS - a Windoze-free zone!

[Adam Maye]

Martyn Fox did inscribe in digital form this eloquent missive:
In article <vfrWa.3$eD2.113@news.oracle.com>, James Sargent <root@127.0.0.1> wrote: Pepsi? There's a discernable difference between the two? I believe I can tell the difference and I prefer Coca Cola. It's survived most of the last century. somebody must like it. Martyn
At the risk of sounding AOLish, I can definitely tell the difference, and
prefer Cocal Cola too. Pepsi tends to make me burp more ;)

Adam

[Jochen Lueg]

In article <bgegk6$66g$1@titan.btinternet.com>, Adam Maye
<sparkcatcher@hotmail.com> wrote: John Williams did inscribe in digital form this eloquent missive:
In article <4c1b1e8c0dtudor@argonet.co.uk>, Jochen Lueg <tudor@argonet.co.uk> wrote: I think the tins are different. If my original proposition concerning their corrosivity is correct, how do the tins (cans) survive? Should we be making computer parts out of that? John
Hluminium is highly resistant to corrosion. Rather than oxidising in flakes like iron, which therefore lets in air and water and causes an endless cycle of rusting, a smooth, even layer of aluminium oxide is formed on the surface. This protects the metal below from further corrosion :) .

That is true in everyday life, but I spent 4 miserable years of my life
working in an acetelyne plant were copper wiring was banned and everything
electrical exposed to the gas had to be from aluminium. You wouldn't
believe with how many materials aluminium can react and how aluminium pyro
can literally explode. Dreadful stuff.

Jochen

--

-----------------------------------------------
Jochen Lueg jochen.lueg@argonet.co.uk
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/tudor

[Martyn Fox]

In article <bgegk6$66g$1@titan.btinternet.com>, Adam Maye
<sparkcatcher@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hluminium is highly resistant to corrosion. Rather than oxidising in flakes like iron, which therefore lets in air and water and causes an endless cycle of rusting, a smooth, even layer of aluminium oxide is formed on the surface. This protects the metal below from further corrosion :) .

I've heard it said that aluminium telephone lines, laid in the sixties when
there was a shortage of copper, are now rotting away.

Martyn

--
_
|\/| _ _ -+- _ |_ _ Windsor, Berks. UK
| | (_| | | (_| | ) | (_) )( mfox@argonet.co.uk
ZFC La _| Iyonix pc with 80321 and RISC OS - a Windoze-free zone!

[Steve Fryatt]

On 2 Aug, Martyn Fox wrote in message
<4c1b8e49edmfox@argonet.co.uk>:
In article <bgegk6$66g$1@titan.btinternet.com>, Adam Maye <sparkcatcher@hotmail.com> wrote: Hluminium is highly resistant to corrosion. Rather than oxidising in flakes like iron, which therefore lets in air and water and causes an endless cycle of rusting, a smooth, even layer of aluminium oxide is formed on the surface. This protects the metal below from further corrosion :) . I've heard it said that aluminium telephone lines, laid in the sixties when there was a shortage of copper, are now rotting away.

I think it's the *joints* in the aluminium cables that are failing, for
exactly this reason: the surface corrodes and the joint ceases to behave
like a joint.

--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

* "When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands
explained." - Mark Twain

[Reg Hems]

In article <4c1ab4210ctudor@argonet.co.uk> Jochen Lueg wrote: In article <4c1a495f47reghems@argonet.co.uk> Reg Hems wrote:
In the mid 50s I worked in Werdohl in Germany (Jochen will know) and a wedding, a child, birthday, traditionally required a case of Krombacher Pilsner. I still have some glasses. A few months ago I found Krombacher in Tesco's. It tasted exactly the way I remembered it.
Ah, for one glorious month when Tesco opened in Limavady they sold Krombacher Pilsner. Even though it was in tins it was delicious, I quite agree with you there Reg.....

Our Tesco's sell it in 33 cl 'bottles'. My Krombacher glasses are 20 and
25 cl so that the head can be topped up. It says on the label "Krombacher
Privat Brauerei Kreutztal" i.e. not brewed under licence in UK. It also
states: "Brewed according to the German purity law of 1516".
..... Now you can only get the usual junk and some totally over-priced Becks.

My method is to fill in a customer complaint form and tick "telephone reply
within 24 hours". I suspect that the lady that replies is beginning to know
me, as we have some very 'interesting' discussions. A few times she would
phone back to advise that the buying department[1] had reinstated the
product or to suggest an alternative. During a next conversation I would
inform that the alternative was fine or that we preferred the withdrawn
product.

Buying departments rely a lot on their computers. A few years ago I
complained that a food supplement (which my wife takes for her eyes) was
missing from the shelf (again. The Supervisor told me that the product
had been withdrawn because there was no demand for it: "You are the 5th
person today to ask for it".

* It's not the bits of the Bible I can't understand that worry me.
It's the bits that I do understand - Mark Twain
--
Reg Hems ZFC LXX2 \_
BBC B Micro Iss.3&7 \_
Atomwide Serial board \_
Diamond SupraExpress 56 \_
ARM3 PC A420 IDE-SCSI 8Mb \_
reghems@argonet.co.uk |
Uploaded on Sat,02 Aug 2003.16:58

[Reg Hems]

In article <4c1b5feac6tudor@argonet.co.uk> Jochen Lueg wrote: In article <bgegk6$66g$1@titan.btinternet.com> Adam Maye wrote:
Aluminium is highly resistant to corrosion. Rather than oxidising in flakes like iron, which therefore lets in air and water and causes an endless cycle of rusting, a smooth, even layer of aluminium oxide is formed on the surface. This protects the metal below from further corrosion :)

When I worked in Germany in the mid 60s, the company manufactured hydraulic
control valves to actuate hydraulic cylinders on board of dredgers. These
control valves were mounted on deck, often in a seawater atmosphere. The
housings were blocks cut from cold rolled rectangular Aluminium bar.
AluMgSi IIRC.
That is true in everyday life, but I spent 4 miserable years of my life working in an acetelyne plant were copper wiring was banned and everything electrical exposed to the gas had to be from aluminium. You wouldn't believe with how many materials aluminium can react and how aluminium pyro can literally explode. Dreadful stuff.

I (and many others) started to experience connect\authentication problems
end Nov 2000. It was sheer coincidence that, during the very week, I
changed from my USR Sportster 28.8\33.6 to a SupraExpress 56 i.e. I blamed
the modem initially. I then found the same problem with my USR which had
performed faultlessly from 26 Apr 1996 until Nov 2000. I still have failed
connections but nowhere as bad as in the early months after Nov 2000.

I then realised that these problems coincided with weeks and weeks of heavy
rain (British Monsoon). The idea of corroding Alu phone lines came when the
BT engineer, doing work in the waterlogged pit in front of our house,
showed me a couple of badly corroded connectors\wires. He said that BT
had started using Alu wires in the early 60s during a shortage of copper
which now started to deteriorate. BT could not afford to replace their
systems wholesale as it would have brought the whole UK network to a
standstill, so they only repair\upgrade as and when faults occur.

It might also explain why these problems only hit people in specific
locations and not in others, some no more than a mile apart in the same
street.

* Beware of geeks bearing GIFs
--
Reg Hems ZFC LXX2 \_
BBC B Micro Iss.3&7 \_
Atomwide Serial board \_
Diamond SupraExpress 56 \_
ARM3 PC A420 IDE-SCSI 8Mb \_
reghems@argonet.co.uk |
Uploaded on Sun,03 Aug 2003.17:28

[Martyn Fox]

In article <4c1c3996c2reghems@argonet.co.uk>, Reg Hems
<reghems@nospam.invalid> wrote:
I then realised that these problems coincided with weeks and weeks of heavy rain (British Monsoon). The idea of corroding Alu phone lines came when the BT engineer, doing work in the waterlogged pit in front of our house, showed me a couple of badly corroded connectors\wires. He said that BT had started using Alu wires in the early 60s during a shortage of copper which now started to deteriorate. BT could not afford to replace their systems wholesale as it would have brought the whole UK network to a standstill, so they only repair\upgrade as and when faults occur.

I've posted about my former BT line before, on Argonet but, in case anyone
else is interested, my house was built, I understand, in 1964 so it seems a
reasonable assumption that the underground telephone cables around this
area were laid at about that time.

We had a lot of faults on our BT line, especially in the early nineties.
The BT vans could often be seen in the area, the engineers working on the
manholes, especially after heavy rain, which could result in flooding in
the manholes. At one point, BT dug up the pavement to install a new cable
between the junction box outside our house and the next one, a few yards
along the road. It was obvious to me that they were doing repairs piecemeal.

In the meantime, Windsor Cable (later the Cable Corporation and now part of
Telewest) installed a network from scratch. After four faults in two years
(usually over weekends), we decided to rent a cable line and dispense with
the BT line. Telewest seem to have one of the worst customer relations
departments of any company I've come across, but their phone line has
worked perfectly since it was installed.

(I didn't have a modem when we changed lines, so I can't give a comparison
of speed.)

Unfortunately, the cable to which my Telewest phone line is attached is
analogue and broadband Internet requires a digital cable. Despite
saturation radio advertising telling me that "I should not put up with a
slow Internet connection", Telewest have stated that they have absolutely
no intention of upgrading their analogue customers to digital and have
actually advised me that, if I want broadband Internet, I should go back to
BT. (I would then cease to be a Telewest customer because we do not have
cable television and could not justify two phone lines.)

Unfortunately, it appears that a BT line to my home would be more than 5.5
km long, despite the fact that Windsor is not a very large town and we live
just within its built-up area. Apparently, ADSL is not guaranteed to work
at more than this distance and I suspect that I couldn't have a line tested
for ADSL capability without signing a rental agreement for it first. I'm
wondering if I would get the same pair of wires back again, or one of
similar quality and reliability.

In other words, I feel stuck with dialup for the foreseeable future.

Martyn

--
_
|\/| _ _ -+- _ |_ _ Windsor, Berks. UK
| | (_| | | (_| | ) | (_) )( mfox@argonet.co.uk
ZFC La _| Iyonix pc with 80321 and RISC OS - a Windoze-free zone!

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

In message <4c1c5c958bmfox@argonet.co.uk>
Martyn Fox <mfox@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>
Unfortunately, it appears that a BT line to my home would be more than 5.5 km long, despite the fact that Windsor is not a very large town and we live just within its built-up area. Apparently, ADSL is not guaranteed to work at more than this distance and I suspect that I couldn't have a line tested for ADSL capability without signing a rental agreement for it first. I'm wondering if I would get the same pair of wires back again, or one of similar quality and reliability.

I live in the Windsor area and BT did some test on the line to establish
its suitability: all OK and I've been using ADSL OK since January with no
troubles.

But we have no cable in our village; I'm envious.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

[Martyn Fox]

In article <4c1cb57573tudor@argonet.co.uk>, Jochen Lueg
<tudor@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
I believe I can tell the difference and I prefer Coca Cola.
It's survived most of the last century.
So has cat pee.

.... and without being marketed!

Martyn

--
_
|\/| _ _ -+- _ |_ _ Windsor, Berks. UK
| | (_| | | (_| | ) | (_) )( mfox@argonet.co.uk
ZFC La _| Iyonix pc with 80321 and RISC OS - a Windoze-free zone!

[Ian K (N)]

In article <f0219d1b4c.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>,
Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote: On 2 Aug, Martyn Fox wrote in message <4c1b8e49edmfox@argonet.co.uk>:
In article <bgegk6$66g$1@titan.btinternet.com>, Adam Maye <sparkcatcher@hotmail.com> wrote: Hluminium is highly resistant to corrosion. Rather than oxidising in flakes like iron, which therefore lets in air and water and causes an endless cycle of rusting, a smooth, even layer of aluminium oxide is formed on the surface. This protects the metal below from further corrosion :) . I've heard it said that aluminium telephone lines, laid in the sixties when there was a shortage of copper, are now rotting away.
I think it's the *joints* in the aluminium cables that are failing, for exactly this reason: the surface corrodes and the joint ceases to behave like a joint.

I remember from my brief stint with BT in the late 80's, they were forever
causing crackly lines. The oxidisation would build up especially where
copper crimps had incorrectly been used. The general remedy was as I
remember to go down the line chopping off and replacing all the crimps
with fresh ones. Unfortunately they started putting the cables under
ground at about the same which exelerated the oxidisation.

Regards
Ian K


* Founder member of the East Fincley On Sea Codswollop Deprecation Society. ;-)

[Brian Carroll]

In article <4c1c5c958bmfox@argonet.co.uk>, Martyn Fox
<mfox@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]
Unfortunately, it appears that a BT line to my home would be more than 5.5 km long, despite the fact that Windsor is not a very large town and we live just within its built-up area. Apparently, ADSL is not guaranteed to work at more than this distance and I suspect that I couldn't have a line tested for ADSL capability without signing a rental agreement for it first. ....

When ADSL arrived here last April I worried about that. However,
the standard deal seems to be that you sign up for a service (I
use freedom2surf) assuming the line *will* be OK. If it is not,
no debit is made on your account and the deal ceases. You can do
this before you spend money on a router or ADSL modem, but of
course you might then have a few days paying for a service which
you cannot access.

How do you know the length of your line, BTW? It may be
considerably more than the geographical distance to your
exchange. I believe that 5.5km is a very conservative figure
anyway, so you may be OK.

Brian.

--
______________________________________________________________

Brian Carroll, Ripon, North Yorkshire, UK bric@argonet.co.uk
______________________________________________________________

[Adam Richardson]

Back to cats...
(Subject to read: The cat sat on my keyboard)

First, I was happily reading my unread news in Messenger when my cat decided
to stand on SPACE which made Messenger merrily go through and mark all my
unread news as read. Grrrr!

Then, I went to shutdown and he rolled onto a whole area of keys and havoc
broke loose! The computer restarted, with the normal three lines of text
(RISC OS, RAM etc.) replaced with just:

Monitor type reset

but everything seemed fine until I restated again and I was presented with a
monitor which refused to stop being in "Power Save" mode :-(

Needless to say after much fiddling (in the dark) and concern that my monitor
had just happened to take that instant to die, I finally got stuff working
again (*configure monitortype <random>) :-)



What keypress on startup does strange things to the monitor setup then??

Adam

--
Adam Richardson
Carpe Diem

Never put off until tomorrow what you can avoid altogether.

[druck]

On 17 Aug 2003 Adam Richardson <cooladamrichardson@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Snip]
What keypress on startup does strange things to the monitor setup then??

Number keys on the numeric keypad select monitor type, keypad +/- select sync
type.

---druck

--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/