Silent Computer - Advice

[David Taylor]

**** The word 'Silent' is subjective and based on what a person
considers to be noise, along with the sensitivity of the person's
ears, and tolerance of different pitches. One man's silence is another
man's noise *****

I've bought components after reading reviews that they're silent, only
to be disappointed. Examples include the PC Power and cooling
Silencer PSU(recommended by the renowned expert Scott Mueller in his
book Upgrading and Repairing PCs) The PSU is also recommended on
various websites, and newsgroups. The QuietPC PSU recommended on many
websites. They gave me a full refund.
The Seagate ST340014A Hard drive. Unfortunately the widely recommended
ST340016A which is also totally sealed which helps muffle the sound,
has been discontinued.


I drown out my cpu,psu(fan noise and hum),graphics card fan,hdd, and
monitor noises with a more pleasant 'case fan' noise. note: you can
easily get graphics cards without fans, they use passive heatsinks.
(heatsinks without fans - opposite of active heatsink) for cooling.
Another option is to move the computer out of the room with a cat5 kvm
extender, then you just have to put up with monitor noise, maybe you
can find a quiet monitor. Although Ps2 is going out of fashion, a
lot of boards have issues with USB mouse and keyboard. Some have said
that Windows 98 does too. Apparently the newer boards that don't
support Ps2, support USB better. I won't even go into all the
problems i've had with USB hubs every 5m and USB boosters.
cat 5 kvm extenders (which extend monitor,keyb and mouse) are
expensive. cat 5 usb kvm extenders are cheaper relatively speaking,
but then you're relying on USB, which is probably perfect if you've
got a new board without ps2 ports, but a little risky if you have a
board with ps2 - a 'legacy board'.


If you want a completely noiseless computer, it's possible. You can
have a totally fanless computer, but there may still be hums. If
you've got average hearing, then you may not hear them.

The HDD would be very audible, (not just the 'working noise', but the
continuous hum it makes whilst the power cable is in it), as the noise
won't be drowned out by other fans.
You'd hear the mouse and keyboard. Though that doesn't bother me. And
There are probably 'silent' keyboards, perhaps completely noiseless
keyboards.
Many monitors hum, even TFT ones, though TFT is much quieter than CRT
monitors. Some reviews say that there are silent TFT screens. Don't
rely on a review, unfortunately it's expensive to judge for yourself.
Maybe buy and sell on ebay until you find a truly noiseless one, then
post here and tell everybody if you think it's quiet or better still,
completely inaudible(compute r off,monitor on, eyes closed,ear to
monitor).

Noiseless(0db) HDDs don't exist yet, I find HDD noise very unpleasant,
so i'd rather have my case fans drowning out HDD noise. However, if
you want a quieter hdd, There are things you can do. I wouldn't
though, as the more you try to quieten it, the more you notice the
noise, and HDD noise is always there. If you have a quiet enough
laptop hdd then you could use it with a 2.5"-3.5" ide adaptor cable.
Or You could get a hard drive silencing kit (they're for 3.5"
[desktop] HDDs) but then your HDD will run hotter and last for less
years. You could always then buy SpinRite by GRC, the world -
including the FBI - trusts GRC to deliver. And Gibson says that his
software makes HDD crashes a thing of the past. I haven't tried his
software, but I'd bet my life on it without hesitation. I think the
multitude of USB problems only occur with the usb keyboard and mouse.
So maybe, and this is extreme, get a usb kvm extender and extend your
hard drive out of the room, and set your BIOS (if it has the option)
to boot from the USB device.
Obviously you'll need the option. If you don't have it, you could
always flash your BIOS with an upgrade, but it's a lot of expense. If
it worked, then you would have removed the HDD hum.
In the rest of the email, i'll mention some products which may be
fanless and humless.
It may be possible to remove all fans and hums from your computer.
Many people just quieten the HDD rather than make it completely
noiseless. They buy a silent drive enclosure and put certain models
of seagate barracude in there. (I can't recommend any particular ones,
except *maybe* the discontinued st340016a which was, from memory,
listed on the seagate website as noise=2bels(20db) and the drive is
completely sealed. It's like a metallic block.

Power supply fans are the great evil of a so-called silent computer.
At last there's a possibility of a PSU that's completely noiseless.
Maybe it hums though(probably depends on if the tranformers are made
from ferrite), I haven't tried it. The PSU is expensive
and the PSU is a sealed box not a card. It's a proper PSU, and the
nicest looking PSU i've ever seen. If you were crazy you could mod it
and put a window on it, it's a bit expensive buy, let alone to saw
into. A truly noiseless PSU is like the crown jewels. I hope it
doesn't hum.
http://www.siliconacoustics.com/siliconacoustics/silpc.html
Beware of the other so-called fanless PSUs, yeah, they're fanless, but
they require about 30cfm(cubic feet per minute) of air passing over
them to cool them. i.e. they require a fan over them.
If you want to mess around, or if that extremely promising silentmaxx
psu falls flat then-
Some people say that a 7v panaflow fan is noiseless, and have modded
their panaflow fan to 7v, along with their PSU to take 2 panaflow
fans. I'm no electrician, but from consulting with an electrician,
and successfully removing the fan from my power supply, i've learnt
that if the PSU is switched off, it is impossible to be electricuted.
There are capacitors in there that store some charge, don't touch
them. You can always wait a few hours for the charge to drain from
them, if you want to be extra careful, wait a day. People that have
touched them have just been left with a sore finger tip for a couple
of weeks. You can always get a fan speed controller or voltage
regulator for the panaflow fan so you don't have to mod it to 7v.
Modding the fan to 7v
is called the '7v fan mod' it's a classic mod. You can google it.

Here is a google posting summarising it well in words. THe web has
nice pictures, but rarely a textual description as concise as this
one.

From: Nervil (nervil@my-dejanews.com)
Subject: Re: How to quiet a PC?
View: Complete Thread (3 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips
Date: 1999/05/11


This CPU cooler should be completely noiseless. I haven't tried it.
googling CPU+fanless+fins should find it whenever you need it.
Here's the link.
http://www.tsheatronics.co.jp/zen/english/ncu1000_e.html
It certainly looks as revolutionary as the silentmaxx PSU.
There's a good chance that the silentmaxx PSU, and this PSU cooler
don't hum.

Water-cooling CPUs (not the above), have fans.
Some people say the flower cooler(not the above) with the fan
switched off is completely noiseless. It'd only do for a low power
processor though, like the via c3 which is an embedded processor.

Via Eden computers have embedded processors that don't require a fan
or any additional cooler.
As via computers are so low on power, they can take a little power
supply card+AC/DC adaptor.
The power supply card is fanless, but hums loudly.
Run them out of the case, and you have a fanless computer. Otherwise
you should have a case fan.
Note that you'd still have to deal with HDD noise and PSU card
noise(if you can hear the PSU card - I can. The PSU cards are made by
Lex and Morex, i'm told that they hum because they use cheap
transformers, not made from ferrite, but from a cheaper form of iron,
so they vibrate at an audible frequency. I can hear the high pitched
hum, most people are happy with them though)

I haven't done much research on silencing cheap transformers, but 1
google posting
I ran into by chacne may hold the answer
From: Dummy (ahkit1021@yahoo.com)
Subject: How to use ferrite beads to attenuate high-freq noise?


The Via c3 computer also has an embedded processor, but requires
cooling. I know of a person that has done this with a flower cooler
with the fan turned off. You can always monitor the CPU temperature,
there are programs for that sort of thing e.g. wcpuid
Still, you'll need a power supply, the most suitable is the power
supply card, lex and morex make them, and they hum. Though most
people don't notice it. At least it's not as bad as a TV on mute, but
it's the same pitch. If you're going to get the silentmaxx, then you
may as well get a proper computer.

whisperpc claim to make silent computers, the man says his computers
are fanless, I believe him. Whether they're silent or not is another
matter. Maybe a silentish type of seagate barracude hdd in a
SilentDrive, inside a chassis(computer case) is inaudible. I won't
know unless I buy one and find out, and i don't plan on it - i've
spent enough, and i don't mind my case fan noises. Their website
www.whisperpc.co.uk has been down for ages. I *think* he once
emailed me and said he used heatpipes(different to heatsinks).

One thing which I did was extend the wires on my power supply and move
the power supply out of my room. The extension wires you buy would
have to be the same gage/thickness, not thinner, than the wires you're
extending. It was horrendously boring extending dozens of wires and
you have to establish a technique otherwise you'll get them all
tangled and have to start all over again.
I did finish enough power connectors to try it. It worked but
switching on the computer was a awkward. I had to push the power
switch and it wouldn't turn on, then flick one of the wires and it
would go on. I stopped using it when I read that it could spike the
computer. (note, you can get a surge protector so your computer isn't
destroyed when it happens) but i'm don't want a weird PSU like that.
Also, looking at the PSU gave me bad memories of extending all those
wires.
Unfortunately the SilentMaxx hadn't come out at the time when I was
doing that. If it had, I would have bought it.



Another technique to cool your case and PSU is using long Air ducts,
with the fan ends out of your room. I haven't tried it, but it's is
done. Or - and i don't recommend this - put the end of the duct out
the window or through a hole in the wall leading outside, with the end
of the ducts tilted downwards to avoid rain.

This is a bad era to go looking for a completely noiseless computer.
There are too many bad boy components, and you need a lot of luck and
time and money for experimentation. Hence I drown out the high
pitched noise with a lower pitched noise.

To summarise:
*************************** Silent PSU *******************************
Method a) Of Silencing PSU
SilentMaxx looks promising that it will be perfect(humless), if
it works, and doesn't hum, then I think it's worth its price.
I WOULD HAVE BOUGHT IT HAD IT BEEN AVAILABLE EARLIER.(probably will
in the future) http://www.siliconacoustics.com/siliconacoustics/silpc.html

Method b) Of Silencing PSU
Morex/Lex Power card. Cheap, but hums - no good for me. Maybe
that google posting can make it completely noiseless. THey would
be put in Via computers btw, the via website is aweful, I use
www.linitx.com
I GOT IT AND WISHED I HADN'T. Linitx were amazing though great
support, great website. via website has some specs though - if you
can fine them, they're useful.

Method c) Of Silencing PSU
A So-called quiet PSU. Just a PSU with a quiet fan. Zalman make
one, Nexus is supposed to be quiet. QuietPc make one. There are
loads. I wouldn't risk it I GOT THE BEST ONE FOR ITS TIME AND
SENT IT BACK - Too high pitched.

Method d) Of Silencing PSU
7v fan mod of 2 panaflow fans (panaflow is popular) one on the
bottom of the PSU, the part of it above the CPU, sucking.
Another at the back blowing.
From memory, i think that's recommended by AMD's case cooling
guide. You can put a temperature probe in there. In which case
know what temp the PSU normally runs at by using the probe
before modding the PSU. I haven't tried this. It looks like
fun, will do it one day. Don't have high hopes that it'll work
though, but it should be a great improvement to a typical PSU.
See footnote [1] Don't be suprised if the fan wires don't match
the wires that the power supply wants.
See footnote [2] about blowhole making equipment
note: people that have done it and probed the temperature say
that 1 panaflow is not enough. You must use 2.

Method e) Of Silencing PSU
The heatpipe (different to heatsink). This is a serious mod. I
have no idea if it's silent. Apparently some heatpipes are noisy.

Method f) Of Silencing PSU
Somehow get hold of a quiet PSU fan from a zalman or other model of
PSU and install it yourself. That's really screwing the system!
Some PSUs have the fans soldered in, no big deal, wires can be cut.
See footnote [1] Don't be suprised if the fan wires don't match
the wires that the power supply wants.
See footnote [2] about blowhole making equipment

Method g) Of Silencing PSU
If you find that a really low power PSU with a fan is effective,
like the ones that linitx.com sell on some of their via
machines, then you could use many of them to power up the
computer and devices. Apparently the Mod is very simple.
In order to get a PSU to run without plugging it into the
motherboard, see
http://www.gideontech.com/guides/psu_powerup/ It's a
wonderful guide. I suggest buying a little atx extension cable
and modding that. I haven't done that yet though. Scott Mueller
warns that you should use a low wattage soldering
iron so as not to damage electronics. Not more than 30w. In
this case, there's a risk of burning the plastic a bit.

Method h) Extending PSU wires - DON'T DO IT. COULD CAUSE SPIKE (for
electical reasons that i don't know about - yet)

*********************Silencing CPU *****************************

Method a) Of Silent CPU
The passive(fanless) heatsink cooler with fins cooling
http://www.tsheatronics.co.jp/zen/english/ncu1000_e.html
It looks promising that it will be perfect (humless), don't know the
price though. If it was available earlier, I would have bought it.

Method b) Of Silencing CPU
A quiet fan (if you have a noisy PSU fan then you *probably* won't
notice a quiet CPU fan) Unfortunately CPU Fans can be high pitched,
though so can PSU fans. I can't guarantee anything.

Method c) Of Silencing CPU
The zalman flower cooler. It comes with a fan, but if you have a low
power processor like the via c3 then you can turn the fan off. At
least
that's what a lot of people do. I've never done it myself. You should
monitor its temperature if you do. There's software that'll do it like
wcpuid, or temperature probes.

Method d) Of Silencing CPU
Get a via eden and then you don't need to add any cooling to the CPU.
It's got a passive(fanless) heatsink built over it

***********************Case cooling**************************

Method a) of Case cooling
Panaflow fans (may need to make a blowhole, see footnote [2])

Method b) of Case cooling
Some other make of 'quiet' case fan (may need to make a blowhold,
see footnote [2])

Method c) of Case cooling
Use 2 air ducts 1 to suck and 1 to blow air out of the case. I've
never tried it, but maybe if you make the ducts really long so they
go out of your room. Attach fans to the end of the ducts that are
outside the room, 1 to suck, 1 to blow (fans suck or blow depending
on which way you put them in). I don't know how effective this is.
You can check the ducts, hopefully 1 fan at the end is enough to blow
or suck the air all the way along. I think it should be, but you have
to try it to make sure.

Method d) of Case cooling
It's bad and against all manufacturer's recommendations to do so, but
one could take the cover off the computer and monitor the temperature,
many people find that it's ok.

Method e) of Case cooling
Maybe many little case fans, or 2 very large(120mm) case fans at low
rpm, would be a little bit quiet, but i wouldn't count on it.

Method f) of Case cooling
Maybe many 7v panaflows would do it nicely.

Method g) of Case cooling
Some say water-cooled cases are very quiet. Koolance make water-
cooled cases. They may require a case fan, albeit a lower powered one
than would be needed had the case not had the water-cool feature.


*****************************Hard drive 'silencing' *****************
note: Hard drive silencing looks bleak. There's seems to be no
promising way to have a completely silent HDD. Maybe i'll run into a
silent HDD 1 day, or maybe we'll just have to wait till HDDs are
replaced. I should find out why those little computers i've seen seem
so quiet, why i couldn't hear the HDD. Maybe if I ran them in my room
i'd hear it. (I mention the little computers later)

Method a) Of hard drive 'silencing'
Use a 'quiet' model of Seagate barracude and put it in a SilentDrive
to muffle the sound

Method b) Of hard drive 'silencing'
usb kvm extender with the bios set to boot off the usb device. (you
can get a usb hard drive, or a usb-ide adaptor) (everybody should have
a usb-ide adaptor anyway)

Monitor
Look at TFT ones. Buy and sell on ebay until you find a quiet
one. You
can only judge for yourself. They may all actually be very
quiet. I
don't know if there's a truly noiseless one.

Mouse/Keyb
I'm sure there are quiet keyboards, the mouse/keyb noise doesn't
bother me.


Complete solutions
maybe whisperpc.co.uk, though they're expensive.

There are some computers that I may have found completely inaudible,
really small computers, smaller than laptops, (I could guess that
they're palmtops though i thought palm tops weren't so powerfull. I
haven't got time to look into exactly what models they are right now,
I'll repost this with the details another time). They're proper
computers that run Windows XP, but they're expensive, though so is
whisperpc. You see them in regular computer shops - At least in
tottenham court road (rip-off road in rip-off britain). You can take
the idea further, as if you have a LAN, e.g. a broadband connection
using a router instead of a modem, and plug another computer into the
router. Then you can use VNC or Radmin to access a fast noisy computer
somewhere else in the house as if you're at that computer. If you're
at work and you have a fast connection, then you can connect up to
your fast computer at home, it may be in almost real time.
However, if a connection is 56k, then it wouldn't be much fun to use
continuously.
If the small computer is powerful enough, then you won't need to
access a fast computer anyway. Note, maybe if I bought one I'd be
able to hear it clearly. I can't imagine that the HDD is inaudible.

There are 2 models and many types of IBM thinkpad X22 (about 20 in
each model). I'm think that 1 in particular, is completely inaudible
to my ears (and that's saying something). But I don't know which type
it was, the guy that had it, sold it on to somebody else and doesn't
know what model and type it was. Most of the types make a very
audible hum. Maybe if i had used it in my room for a couple of hours
i'd have started to hear the HDD, the hum of the PSU e.t.c., but i did
really put my ear to it and didn't hear a thing.



[1]
I've noticed that some PSU fans have 3 wires (2 black, 1 red)others
have 2 wires (1 black, 1 red).
Some CPU fans, are (Red,Black,Yellow) others are (Red,black,black).
Some case fans are (Red Black,yellow) Others are (Red,Black)
With my red+black case fan the wires lead to a 4-pin power connector.
There may be other possibilities for fan colours.
I don't yet have the electronics/electrical knowledge to change 1 set
of colours/voltages to another set of colours/voltages

[2] A blowhole - hole for a fan. Requires either
Drill and hacksaw
or Drill and Rotary tool
or Drill and a holesaw (a holesaw is a type of drillbit, you want
it the right size. Note that fans come in 40mm,60mm,80mm,90mm,92mm -
most people don't bother with 40mm and 60mm, maybe lots of little ones
would be quiet.) I think a holesaw requires a special arbor bit. The
holesaw way may be very expensive, especially if you don't have a
drill.
I guess you can cut a square or an octagon. Below is an ascii drawing
of an octagonal blowhole
produced by pbrush, passed through ASCGEN and amended in MS Word using
ALT+mouse dragging. (ascgen and that feature of word are highly
recommended, hence i squeezed that in)
The 'M's on the diagram mark where the drill holes screws would go.
Circles are good too.


MMMMMMB MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM .MMMMMM
MMMMMM: @M MZ MMMMMM
MMMMMMMM; ZM MMMMMM
M; MM BSaZZM
WM M:
XM, 7Mi
M M
M M
M M
M M
M M
M M
M M
M M
MMZ ZMM
SMM MS
SZ :ai
MM@8SM M@ .:M M20MMM
MMMMMM iMM. MMX MMMMMM
MMMMMM MMMZ 7MM MMMMMM
,MMMMMM SMMMMMMMMMMMMM0 , MMMMMM

The following are unusual ideas. Not mine, I have no idea if they
would work, I probably wouldn't try.
From: Kalypso (techpro@mindspring.com)
Subject: The ultimate Quiet & Cool solution
This is the only article in this thread
View: Original Format
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips
Date: 1997/12/27
or, Putting your computer in an oil bath.

[Grant]

"David Taylor" <marf@aceinternet.co.uk> wrote in message

Apparently Acorns are silent.

[Paul Stevenson]

" Putterer's Nemesis" <Grant@Mcleod40.fsnet.co.ku.com> wrote in message
news:3f71bf54$0$269$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com... "David Taylor" <marf@aceinternet.co.uk> wrote in message Apparently Acorns are silent.

I take it you mean computers not potential oak trees? :-)

Lets put it this way, the last but one range were pretty quiet, the Risc PC
has fan noise and HD noise but is pretty quiet, its on my desk, the heap of
s**te PC that I'm typing this one is noisy and lives under the desk.
Unfortunately I can't afford the latest Acorn inspired ARM machine, if I
could I'd ditch this thing.

Paul

[AMD'r]

> "David Taylor" <marf@aceinternet.co.uk> wrote in message Apparently Acorns are silent.

Thanks, I've been pondering this for years...

"if an acorn falls in the forest and no-one is around,
does it still make a sound?"

[Baffie]

silence is not a subjective statement, silence is 'without noise'
'quiet' may be a more accurate statement for a pc (or anything else
for that matter)

I've just gone down this route - so here's a word or two to the
wise...

Antec case - the sonata - great design, sideways mounted hard drives
on rubber mounts do indeed cut down on drive noise

(4 seatgates in there and it's pretty quiet - barely perceptible when
they're seeking/writing) I took the precaution of lining the drive
trays with felt, that helps any noise that is generated from bouncing
around.)

The Antec psu is as near to noiseless as I've ever heard, and as my
video card is fanless there's nothing from that either.

the two dvd drives I have in the case (1 is a writer) are both very
noisy when they spin up - very noticeable.

Generally though, the package is surprisingly quiet, so much so that I
immediately noticed a hum from a psu from a sportster modem that has
sat under my desk for several years, I'm also noticing that my monitor
is leaking noise too!!

So, have fun, but be warned, the hunt for silence can become
compulsive!!

Baffie.
Please reply to newsgroup - it's not my address in the header!

[Mitchua]

"Baffie" <abuse@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:r9j3nv0enonq54bsgbsqbubf34cb2f81ee@4ax.com... silence is not a subjective statement, silence is 'without noise' 'quiet' may be a more accurate statement for a pc (or anything else for that matter) I've just gone down this route - so here's a word or two to the wise... Antec case - the sonata - great design, sideways mounted hard drives on rubber mounts do indeed cut down on drive noise (4 seatgates in there and it's pretty quiet - barely perceptible when they're seeking/writing) I took the precaution of lining the drive trays with felt, that helps any noise that is generated from bouncing around.) The Antec psu is as near to noiseless as I've ever heard, and as my video card is fanless there's nothing from that either. the two dvd drives I have in the case (1 is a writer) are both very noisy when they spin up - very noticeable. Generally though, the package is surprisingly quiet, so much so that I immediately noticed a hum from a psu from a sportster modem that has sat under my desk for several years, I'm also noticing that my monitor is leaking noise too!! So, have fun, but be warned, the hunt for silence can become compulsive!!

Tell me about it. I spent 1.5 years trying to quiet down my PC! Finally I
can hear myself think. (check out my other threads)

--Mitchua

Baffie. Please reply to newsgroup - it's not my address in the header!

[CLF]

If you think of silent as being noiseless, then you're crazy. If you get a
noiseless PC, then you're going to just hear the other things more, like,
cars going by, or planes, or these little weird noises that annoy you until
you have to go find out what it is only to find out it is nothing but you
wouldn't have heard it if you had had a normally noise-making PC.

Let's put it this way, I didn't know monitors have a noise because my PC has
a black delta 7000RPM fan in there, plus 2 case fans, a PSU fan, lil'
chipset fan, lil' graphics card fan, a hard drive, and a 52x cd-rw drive
that I'm told makes quite a bit of noise since it spins at 12kRPM.

You know I just put on some music, and the PC goes away.

For what normal people would consider silent, I think that the PSU's without
fans would be silent. You can get some slow-spinning fans or some fans with
a quiet bearing in them. The HDD will always be noisy, but if you are so
inclined, you can just put in the quietest model available, then off-load
all of your HDD capacity to some external devices, be they connected with
ieee1394, USB2.0, or for the speed demon, 1GBit ethernet, ie, a rack-mounted
storage unit (pricey, but can easily hold 0.5TB out of the box).

[Tim Auton]

"CLF" <nospam@yahooo.com> wrote:If you think of silent as being noiseless, then you're crazy. If you get anoiseless PC, then you're going to just hear the other things more, like,cars going by, or planes, or these little weird noises that annoy you untilyou have to go find out what it is only to find out it is nothing but youwouldn't have heard it if you had had a normally noise-making PC.

With that logic why not just have an angle grinder bouncing around the
floor - you'd never hear anything else. Problem solved!
Let's put it this way, I didn't know monitors have a noise because my PC hasa black delta 7000RPM fan in there, plus 2 case fans, a PSU fan, lil'chipset fan, lil' graphics card fan, a hard drive, and a 52x cd-rw drivethat I'm told makes quite a bit of noise since it spins at 12kRPM.You know I just put on some music, and the PC goes away.

Some people don't want to have to crank up their music to drown out a
droning PC. They also live in houses with double glazing away from
main roads and airports and appreciate the quiet.


Tim
--
And the beast shall be made legion. Its numbers shall be increased a
thousand thousand fold. The din of a million keyboards like unto a great
storm shall cover the earth, and the followers of Mammon shall tremble.
- The Book of Mozilla, 3:31

[CLF]

"Tim Auton" <tim.auton@uton.org> wrote in message
news:k2s3nv0kmr7mdckqv4hal1bsaj0h1d1763@4ax.com... "CLF" <nospam@yahooo.com> wrote:If you think of silent as being noiseless, then you're crazy. If you get
anoiseless PC, then you're going to just hear the other things more, like,cars going by, or planes, or these little weird noises that annoy you
untilyou have to go find out what it is only to find out it is nothing but youwouldn't have heard it if you had had a normally noise-making PC. With that logic why not just have an angle grinder bouncing around the floor - you'd never hear anything else. Problem solved!Let's put it this way, I didn't know monitors have a noise because my PC
hasa black delta 7000RPM fan in there, plus 2 case fans, a PSU fan, lil'chipset fan, lil' graphics card fan, a hard drive, and a 52x cd-rw drivethat I'm told makes quite a bit of noise since it spins at 12kRPM.You know I just put on some music, and the PC goes away. Some people don't want to have to crank up their music to drown out a droning PC. They also live in houses with double glazing away from main roads and airports and appreciate the quiet. Tim -- And the beast shall be made legion. Its numbers shall be increased a thousand thousand fold. The din of a million keyboards like unto a great storm shall cover the earth, and the followers of Mammon shall tremble. - The Book of Mozilla, 3:31

Geez, they should spend a day here...it's not urban, but it's still noisy.

[Brian Jones]

On this day of our lord, Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:07:08 +0000 (UTC), Baffie
<abuse@btinternet.com> quilled:

Antec case - the sonata - great design, sideways mounted hard driveson rubber mounts do indeed cut down on drive noise

Front of case has poor ventilation, but they are on the right track by
using a 120mm fan. Look inside a Mac G5 to see it done right. I would
rather mod my Antec 1080 to be silent than buy the Sonata as my
current case has much better ventilation and no front case door
getting in the way.

The Antec psu is as near to noiseless as I've ever heard, and as myvideo card is fanless there's nothing from that either.

Zalman is supposed to be much quieter. I will know in a day or two as
I have one on order. But tests show it is quite a bit quieter than
TruePower.
the two dvd drives I have in the case (1 is a writer) are both verynoisy when they spin up - very noticeable.

I've wittled it down to only one HD at a time by using a mobile rack
for multiple OS's.
I'm also noticing that my monitoris leaking noise too!!

Get an LCD.

[Robert]

In message <3lu3nvckro6t5uf3rgdfs11aabon2s5f86@4ax.com>, Brian Jones
<brian@mybwainhurts.invalid> writesAntec case - the sonata - great design, sideways mounted hard driveson rubber mounts do indeed cut down on drive noiseFront of case has poor ventilation, but they are on the right track byusing a 120mm fan. Look inside a Mac G5 to see it done right. I wouldrather mod my Antec 1080 to be silent than buy the Sonata as mycurrent case has much better ventilation and no front case doorgetting in the way.

Agreed, the intake is too small but it is simple to modify - detach the
lower front plastic bezel and using a small hand saw or jigsaw it is a
few minutes work to double the size of the aperture and, as it is on the
underside of the bezel, this is hidden from view. This does make
sufficient a difference to the airflow to reduce the temperature of the
adjacent HDDs by 3-4C.
--
Robert

[Baffie]

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:17:19 -0700, Brian Jones
<brian@mybwainhurts.invalid> wrote:
On this day of our lord, Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:07:08 +0000 (UTC), Baffie<abuse@btinternet.com> quilled:Antec case - the sonata - great design, sideways mounted hard driveson rubber mounts do indeed cut down on drive noiseFront of case has poor ventilation, but they are on the right track byusing a 120mm fan. Look inside a Mac G5 to see it done right. I wouldrather mod my Antec 1080 to be silent than buy the Sonata as mycurrent case has much better ventilation and no front case doorgetting in the way.
Can't say I noticed a problem. With temp controlled fans, they'll only
blow out harder when they are needed, and consequently, they'll only
draw in air from the front when they need to.The Antec psu is as near to noiseless as I've ever heard, and as myvideo card is fanless there's nothing from that either.Zalman is supposed to be much quieter. I will know in a day or two asI have one on order. But tests show it is quite a bit quieter thanTruePower.
dunno about the psu, but I've got the new zalman 7000 on my p4 as well
as the (zalman) replacement heatsink for the northbridge (anyone wanna
fan with pretty lights from an MSI 875neo?) that in combination with
the other stuff worked wonders.

the two dvd drives I have in the case (1 is a writer) are both verynoisy when they spin up - very noticeable.I've wittled it down to only one HD at a time by using a mobile rackfor multiple OS's.I'm also noticing that my monitoris leaking noise too!!Get an LCD.

Yet to see one that is affordable that has dependable colour
rendition.

Mind you, a 42" gas plasma with touch screen might be acceptable <g>

Baffie.

Please reply to newsgroup - it's not my address in the header!

[John]

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:16:11 +0100, Robert <robert@rlh1.com> wrote:
In message <3lu3nvckro6t5uf3rgdfs11aabon2s5f86@4ax.com>, Brian Jones<brian@mybwainhurts.invalid> writesAntec case - the sonata - great design, sideways mounted hard driveson rubber mounts do indeed cut down on drive noiseFront of case has poor ventilation, but they are on the right track byusing a 120mm fan. Look inside a Mac G5 to see it done right. I wouldrather mod my Antec 1080 to be silent than buy the Sonata as mycurrent case has much better ventilation and no front case doorgetting in the way.Agreed, the intake is too small but it is simple to modify - detach thelower front plastic bezel and using a small hand saw or jigsaw it is afew minutes work to double the size of the aperture and, as it is on theunderside of the bezel, this is hidden from view. This does makesufficient a difference to the airflow to reduce the temperature of theadjacent HDDs by 3-4C.

You're right, but on the other hand, if the case is going to be
modified anyway, there's less and less reason to pay a premium for it.
For example, I just overhauled an old HP case, fitted it with 120mm
rear and 172mm front fan, total cost of the fans was more than the
case.


Dave


Dave

[Baffie]

quick addition to my last post - just thought about this:

temps as reported by sandra and msi system checker:

mainboard: 31c (ambient room temp is 24c)

cpu (3GHZ 400FSB) 41.5c

psu 55c (warm - but as the fans are temp controlled?)

Sandra pro gets her knickers in a twist over the fan speeds though -
thinks they've failed! haha


Please reply to newsgroup - it's not my address in the header!

[John]

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:04:29 +0000 (UTC), Baffie
<abuse@btinternet.com> wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:17:19 -0700, Brian Jones<brian@mybwainhurts.invalid> wrote:On this day of our lord, Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:07:08 +0000 (UTC), Baffie<abuse@btinternet.com> quilled:Antec case - the sonata - great design, sideways mounted hard driveson rubber mounts do indeed cut down on drive noiseFront of case has poor ventilation, but they are on the right track byusing a 120mm fan. Look inside a Mac G5 to see it done right. I wouldrather mod my Antec 1080 to be silent than buy the Sonata as mycurrent case has much better ventilation and no front case doorgetting in the way.Can't say I noticed a problem. With temp controlled fans, they'll onlyblow out harder when they are needed, and consequently, they'll onlydraw in air from the front when they need to.

That is a potential problem. When the system is essentially idle,
creating less heat, the fans slow down, draw in less air, but the HDD
are still spinning, need as much cooling but don't get it. One way to
combat that would be temp-controlled fans with their sensor(s)
attached to the hard drive, which is also possible if there's a front
intake fan.


Dave

[The little lost angel]

On 24 Sep 2003 08:20:01 -0700, marf@aceinternet.co.uk (David Taylor)
wrote:
Erm, why not get a good quality long video cable, keyboard cable,
mouse cable. And stick the box in another room? Or wear earmuffs?
:PppP
--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

[Rob Stow]

The little lost angel wrote:
On 24 Sep 2003 08:20:01 -0700, marf@aceinternet.co.uk (David Taylor) wrote: Erm, why not get a good quality long video cable, keyboard cable, mouse cable. And stick the box in another room? Or wear earmuffs? :PppP

Actually, at one place I lived there was rather conveniently
a small storage room/pantry adjacent to the room I wanted my
computer in. Being a bachelor, I obviously had no use for a
pantry so ...
I just drilled a 1" hole through the wall to pass my
monitor, keyboard, and mouse cables through - no extensions
needed.

My intention was cooling - the storage room was unheated -
rather than sound muffling , but it obviously worked for
both.

Eventually I also got an external CD drive for the rather
obvious reason :-D And there was obviously a hole in
the wall to patch when I moved out.

[Johannes H Andersen]

Rob Stow wrote: The little lost angel wrote: On 24 Sep 2003 08:20:01 -0700, marf@aceinternet.co.uk (David Taylor) wrote: Erm, why not get a good quality long video cable, keyboard cable, mouse cable. And stick the box in another room? Or wear earmuffs? :PppP Actually, at one place I lived there was rather conveniently a small storage room/pantry adjacent to the room I wanted my computer in. Being a bachelor, I obviously had no use for a pantry so ... I just drilled a 1" hole through the wall to pass my monitor, keyboard, and mouse cables through - no extensions needed. My intention was cooling - the storage room was unheated - rather than sound muffling , but it obviously worked for both. Eventually I also got an external CD drive for the rather obvious reason :-D And there was obviously a hole in the wall to patch when I moved out.

Hmm. I've used cable extensions in the past, but it didn't work very well
so I gave it up. In particular it caused problems for the mouse and the
monitor.

[Grant]

"The little lost angel" <a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com> wrote in
message news:3f72815a.215496958@news.pacific.net.sg... On 24 Sep 2003 08:20:01 -0700, marf@aceinternet.co.uk (David Taylor) wrote: Erm, why not get a good quality long video cable, keyboard cable, mouse cable. And stick the box in another room? Or wear earmuffs?

Earmuffs ? why is it cold ?

Ear Defenders or Ear Plugs don't you mean.

[The little lost angel]

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:25:05 +0100, Johannes H Andersen
<johs@sizefitter.com> wrote:
Hmm. I've used cable extensions in the past, but it didn't work very wellso I gave it up. In particular it caused problems for the mouse and themonitor.

I think the quality of the cable matters quite a bit? In one of my
previous work places, the distance was at least 3~4metres apart in
terms of point to point distance. So the KVM cables had to be quite a
bit longer and I never had any issues with the mouse/keyboard/video
when I was working there.

--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

[Baffie]

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:55:19 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:04:29 +0000 (UTC), Baffie<abuse@btinternet.com> wrote:On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:17:19 -0700, Brian Jones<brian@mybwainhurts.invalid> wrote:On this day of our lord, Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:07:08 +0000 (UTC), Baffie<abuse@btinternet.com> quilled:>Antec case - the sonata - great design, sideways mounted hard drives>on rubber mounts do indeed cut down on drive noiseFront of case has poor ventilation, but they are on the right track byusing a 120mm fan. Look inside a Mac G5 to see it done right. I wouldrather mod my Antec 1080 to be silent than buy the Sonata as mycurrent case has much better ventilation and no front case doorgetting in the way.Can't say I noticed a problem. With temp controlled fans, they'll onlyblow out harder when they are needed, and consequently, they'll onlydraw in air from the front when they need to.That is a potential problem. When the system is essentially idle,creating less heat, the fans slow down, draw in less air, but the HDDare still spinning, need as much cooling but don't get it. One way tocombat that would be temp-controlled fans with their sensor(s)attached to the hard drive, which is also possible if there's a frontintake fan.
It ain't a problem for me as I've got my power settings shutting down
the HD after 10 minutes of inactivity, saves power, saves wear and
tear and prevents heat/noise.
Please reply to newsgroup - it's not my address in the header!

[Tim Auton]

Baffie <abuse@btinternet.com> wrote:
[snip]Can't say I noticed a problem. With temp controlled fans, they'll onlyblow out harder when they are needed, and consequently, they'll onlydraw in air from the front when they need to.

For quiet computing I prefer constant speed fans (though with an
efficient speed regulator to set the speed initially). You naturally
filter out constant noise sources if they're quiet enough, variable
noise sources are much more irritating. But then, my CPU load is 100%
24/7 so I need full cooling all the time.


Tim
--
And the beast shall be made legion. Its numbers shall be increased a
thousand thousand fold. The din of a million keyboards like unto a great
storm shall cover the earth, and the followers of Mammon shall tremble.
- The Book of Mozilla, 3:31

[Tim Auton]

Rob Stow <rob.stow@sasktel.net> wrote:The little lost angel wrote: On 24 Sep 2003 08:20:01 -0700, marf@aceinternet.co.uk (David Taylor) wrote: Erm, why not get a good quality long video cable, keyboard cable, mouse cable. And stick the box in another room? Or wear earmuffs? :PppPActually, at one place I lived there was rather convenientlya small storage room/pantry adjacent to the room I wanted mycomputer in. Being a bachelor, I obviously had no use for apantry so ...I just drilled a 1" hole through the wall to pass mymonitor, keyboard, and mouse cables through - no extensionsneeded.

I've had a similar idea but putting my PCs in the loft space (I have
my PCs in the attic room). Two main problems, it's an enclosed space
*heavily* insulated so it might get a bit warm, and it's filthy in
there so I'd need to build a box with filters. If I'm building a box I
may as well have it in the room and save having to crawl through a
hatch to upgrade the hardware!


Tim
--
And the beast shall be made legion. Its numbers shall be increased a
thousand thousand fold. The din of a million keyboards like unto a great
storm shall cover the earth, and the followers of Mammon shall tremble.
- The Book of Mozilla, 3:31

[John]

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:40:19 +0000 (UTC), Baffie
<abuse@btinternet.com> wrote:

That is a potential problem. When the system is essentially idle,creating less heat, the fans slow down, draw in less air, but the HDDare still spinning, need as much cooling but don't get it. One way tocombat that would be temp-controlled fans with their sensor(s)attached to the hard drive, which is also possible if there's a frontintake fan.It ain't a problem for me as I've got my power settings shutting downthe HD after 10 minutes of inactivity, saves power, saves wear andtear and prevents heat/noise.

Then you may have an atypical usage pattern. For many people allowing
the HDD to spin-down after 10 minutes, then spin-up again, more often,
will put a lot more wear on it than letting it continue to spin.



Dave

[Rob Morley]

Baffie <abuse@btinternet.com> wrote:
<snip> It ain't a problem for me as I've got my power settings shutting down the HD after 10 minutes of inactivity, saves power, saves wear and tear and prevents heat/noise.

As long as your HD is adequately cooled it's kinder to leave it spinning
than to frequently spin it up and down.

[Rob Stow]

Johannes H Andersen wrote: Rob Stow wrote:The little lost angel wrote:On 24 Sep 2003 08:20:01 -0700, marf@aceinternet.co.uk (David Taylor)wrote:Erm, why not get a good quality long video cable, keyboard cable,mouse cable. And stick the box in another room? Or wear earmuffs?:PppPActually, at one place I lived there was rather convenientlya small storage room/pantry adjacent to the room I wanted mycomputer in. Being a bachelor, I obviously had no use for apantry so ...I just drilled a 1" hole through the wall to pass mymonitor, keyboard, and mouse cables through - no extensionsneeded.My intention was cooling - the storage room was unheated -rather than sound muffling , but it obviously worked forboth.Eventually I also got an external CD drive for the ratherobvious reason :-D And there was obviously a hole inthe wall to patch when I moved out. Hmm. I've used cable extensions in the past, but it didn't work very well so I gave it up. In particular it caused problems for the mouse and the monitor.

If you have (or are willing to buy) a KVM switch, those often
work even where cable extensions don't.

[Johannes H Andersen]

Rob Stow wrote: Johannes H Andersen wrote: Rob Stow wrote:
[...] Hmm. I've used cable extensions in the past, but it didn't work very well so I gave it up. In particular it caused problems for the mouse and the monitor. If you have (or are willing to buy) a KVM switch, those often work even where cable extensions don't.

I think you're right, the extra plugs for the extensions could have
introduced noise; the mouse worked OK, but not as easy to control than
without the extension cable. My current internet computer is a silent
P1 233MMX, so I'm fine for the moment, but rumours are that the P4
successor will draw 103 Watts.

[Baffie]

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:49:42 +0100, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
Baffie <abuse@btinternet.com> wrote:<snip> It ain't a problem for me as I've got my power settings shutting down the HD after 10 minutes of inactivity, saves power, saves wear and tear and prevents heat/noise.As long as your HD is adequately cooled it's kinder to leave it spinningthan to frequently spin it up and down.
that was the case in days of old, thermal shock now isn't so much an
issue with 21st century bearings and higher density storage.

Please reply to newsgroup - it's not my address in the header!

[Brian Jones]

On this day of our lord, Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:28:01 +0000 (UTC), Baffie
<abuse@btinternet.com> quilled:

Sandra pro gets her knickers in a twist over the fan speeds though -thinks they've failed! haha

My Asus P4B533 mb does that too. If I have fans running below 2000rpm
it flags me to enter the bios at boot up. I just disable the
monitoring of that fan though to avoid it.

[Brian Jones]

On this day of our lord, Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:04:29 +0000 (UTC), Baffie
<abuse@btinternet.com> quilled:


dunno about the psu, but I've got the new zalman 7000 on my p4

The one I'm talking about is the ZM400A-APF w/silent mode. Tests show
it almost twice as quiet as the Trueblue, but that was compared to a
Trueblue 480w.

[Baffie]

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:30:42 -0700, Brian Jones
<brian@mybwainhurts.invalid> wrote:
On this day of our lord, Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:04:29 +0000 (UTC), Baffie<abuse@btinternet.com> quilled:dunno about the psu, but I've got the new zalman 7000 on my p4The one I'm talking about is the ZM400A-APF w/silent mode. Tests showit almost twice as quiet as the Trueblue, but that was compared to aTrueblue 480w.
amazing! I'm not aware of the psu *at all* so if it's half the db, it
must be really something.

no doubt about it, zalman seem to have noise suppression really
nailed.

just fitted a northbridge passive cooler and 6000 'flower' to a pal's
amd, and it's done a great job (mind you the previous cpu cooler was a
'volcano' - it sounded like a hoover junior so anything after that was
a bonus. same thing with motherboard monitoring though - 1400 rpm and
it didn't like it at all - had to turn off the alert system in the
bios.


Please reply to newsgroup - it's not my address in the header!

[John]

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:37:28 +0000 (UTC), Baffie
<abuse@btinternet.com> wrote:
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:49:42 +0100, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com>wrote:Baffie <abuse@btinternet.com> wrote:<snip> It ain't a problem for me as I've got my power settings shutting down the HD after 10 minutes of inactivity, saves power, saves wear and tear and prevents heat/noise.As long as your HD is adequately cooled it's kinder to leave it spinningthan to frequently spin it up and down.that was the case in days of old, thermal shock now isn't so much anissue with 21st century bearings and higher density storage.

Untrue, and likely fabricated. Higher density storage has the exact
opposite effect, makes it even more likely to lose data when there's
slight bearing wear.

Even so, it'll depend on usage patterns, whether the bearing fails
before another problem arises or the drive is retired.


Dave

[Tim Auton]

kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:37:28 +0000 (UTC), Baffie<abuse@btinternet.com> wrote:
[snip]As long as your HD is adequately cooled it's kinder to leave it spinningthan to frequently spin it up and down.that was the case in days of old, thermal shock now isn't so much anissue with 21st century bearings and higher density storage.Untrue, and likely fabricated. Higher density storage has the exactopposite effect, makes it even more likely to lose data when there'sslight bearing wear.

Unless the transition to higher storage densities nesessitated a move
from "blind" positioning systems to ones which tracked the data on the
disk (in a similar way to CDs).


Tim
--
And the beast shall be made legion. Its numbers shall be increased a
thousand thousand fold. The din of a million keyboards like unto a great
storm shall cover the earth, and the followers of Mammon shall tremble.
- The Book of Mozilla, 3:31

[John]

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:36:50 +0100, Tim Auton <tim.auton@uton.org>
wrote:
kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:37:28 +0000 (UTC), Baffie<abuse@btinternet.com> wrote:[snip]>As long as your HD is adequately cooled it's kinder to leave it spinning>than to frequently spin it up and down.that was the case in days of old, thermal shock now isn't so much anissue with 21st century bearings and higher density storage.Untrue, and likely fabricated. Higher density storage has the exactopposite effect, makes it even more likely to lose data when there'sslight bearing wear.Unless the transition to higher storage densities nesessitated a movefrom "blind" positioning systems to ones which tracked the data on thedisk (in a similar way to CDs).


Any way you want to look at it, there's still the same issue,
increased non-repeatable runout will foul head-positioning. There is
no "fix" for that.


Dave

[Tim Auton]

kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:36:50 +0100, Tim Auton <tim.auton@uton.org>wrote:kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:37:28 +0000 (UTC), Baffie<abuse@btinternet.com> wrote:[snip]>>As long as your HD is adequately cooled it's kinder to leave it spinning>>than to frequently spin it up and down.>that was the case in days of old, thermal shock now isn't so much an>issue with 21st century bearings and higher density storage.Untrue, and likely fabricated. Higher density storage has the exactopposite effect, makes it even more likely to lose data when there'sslight bearing wear.Unless the transition to higher storage densities nesessitated a movefrom "blind" positioning systems to ones which tracked the data on thedisk (in a similar way to CDs).Any way you want to look at it, there's still the same issue,increased non-repeatable runout will foul head-positioning. There isno "fix" for that.

No fix? You think a CD head scans x.xxxx mm to the exact part of a
track you requested? No, it follows the wobbly tracks on the badly
centred CD.


Tim
--
And the beast shall be made legion. Its numbers shall be increased a
thousand thousand fold. The din of a million keyboards like unto a great
storm shall cover the earth, and the followers of Mammon shall tremble.
- The Book of Mozilla, 3:31

[John]

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 00:26:49 +0100, Tim Auton <tim.auton@uton.org>
wrote:
kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:36:50 +0100, Tim Auton <tim.auton@uton.org>wrote:kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:>On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:37:28 +0000 (UTC), Baffie><abuse@btinternet.com> wrote:[snip]>>>As long as your HD is adequately cooled it's kinder to leave it spinning>>>than to frequently spin it up and down.>>that was the case in days of old, thermal shock now isn't so much an>>issue with 21st century bearings and higher density storage.>>Untrue, and likely fabricated. Higher density storage has the exact>opposite effect, makes it even more likely to lose data when there's>slight bearing wear.Unless the transition to higher storage densities nesessitated a movefrom "blind" positioning systems to ones which tracked the data on thedisk (in a similar way to CDs).Any way you want to look at it, there's still the same issue,increased non-repeatable runout will foul head-positioning. There isno "fix" for that.No fix? You think a CD head scans x.xxxx mm to the exact part of atrack you requested? No, it follows the wobbly tracks on the badlycentred CD.Tim

It can follow because that is _repeatable_ runout. Even so, that is
moving the opposite direction, not higher density but lower.


Dave

[Gary D.]

I replaced my PSU's fan with a Vantec Stealth 80mm fan (reviewed as
being supposedly "silent") - it reduced the noise levels slightly but
I still consider my PC to be as noisy as hell.
I've tried building fan baffles using various tubing attached to the
rear of the PC fan outlet - it can help but after a few hours of use
the top of the PC case gets quite warm - I wouldn't want to risk
leaving it on all day, overheating and/or fire risk.


On 24 Sep 2003 08:20:01 -0700, marf@aceinternet.co.uk (David Taylor)
wrote:
**** The word 'Silent' is subjective and based on what a personconsiders to be noise, along with the sensitivity of the person'sears, and tolerance of different pitches. One man's silence is anotherman's noise *****I've bought components after reading reviews that they're silent, onlyto be disappointed. Examples include the PC Power and coolingSilencer PSU(recommended by the renowned expert Scott Mueller in hisbook Upgrading and Repairing PCs) The PSU is also recommended onvarious websites, and newsgroups. The QuietPC PSU recommended on manywebsites. They gave me a full refund.The Seagate ST340014A Hard drive. Unfortunately the widely recommendedST340016A which is also totally sealed which helps muffle the sound,has been discontinued.I drown out my cpu,psu(fan noise and hum),graphics card fan,hdd, andmonitor noises with a more pleasant 'case fan' noise. note: you caneasily get graphics cards without fans, they use passive heatsinks.(heatsinks without fans - opposite of active heatsink) for cooling.Another option is to move the computer out of the room with a cat5 kvmextender, then you just have to put up with monitor noise, maybe youcan find a quiet monitor. Although Ps2 is going out of fashion, alot of boards have issues with USB mouse and keyboard. Some have saidthat Windows 98 does too. Apparently the newer boards that don'tsupport Ps2, support USB better. I won't even go into all theproblems i've had with USB hubs every 5m and USB boosters.cat 5 kvm extenders (which extend monitor,keyb and mouse) areexpensive. cat 5 usb kvm extenders are cheaper relatively speaking,but then you're relying on USB, which is probably perfect if you'vegot a new board without ps2 ports, but a little risky if you have aboard with ps2 - a 'legacy board'.If you want a completely noiseless computer, it's possible. You canhave a totally fanless computer, but there may still be hums. Ifyou've got average hearing, then you may not hear them.The HDD would be very audible, (not just the 'working noise', but thecontinuous hum it makes whilst the power cable is in it), as the noisewon't be drowned out by other fans.You'd hear the mouse and keyboard. Though that doesn't bother me. AndThere are probably 'silent' keyboards, perhaps completely noiselesskeyboards.Many monitors hum, even TFT ones, though TFT is much quieter than CRTmonitors. Some reviews say that there are silent TFT screens. Don'trely on a review, unfortunately it's expensive to judge for yourself.Maybe buy and sell on ebay until you find a truly noiseless one, thenpost here and tell everybody if you think it's quiet or better still,completely inaudible(compute r off,monitor on, eyes closed,ear tomonitor).Noiseless(0db) HDDs don't exist yet, I find HDD noise very unpleasant,so i'd rather have my case fans drowning out HDD noise. However, ifyou want a quieter hdd, There are things you can do. I wouldn'tthough, as the more you try to quieten it, the more you notice thenoise, and HDD noise is always there. If you have a quiet enoughlaptop hdd then you could use it with a 2.5"-3.5" ide adaptor cable.Or You could get a hard drive silencing kit (they're for 3.5"[desktop] HDDs) but then your HDD will run hotter and last for lessyears. You could always then buy SpinRite by GRC, the world -including the FBI - trusts GRC to deliver. And Gibson says that hissoftware makes HDD crashes a thing of the past. I haven't tried hissoftware, but I'd bet my life on it without hesitation. I think themultitude of USB problems only occur with the usb keyboard and mouse.So maybe, and this is extreme, get a usb kvm extender and extend yourhard drive out of the room, and set your BIOS (if it has the option)to boot from the USB device.Obviously you'll need the option. If you don't have it, you couldalways flash your BIOS with an upgrade, but it's a lot of expense. Ifit worked, then you would have removed the HDD hum.In the rest of the email, i'll mention some products which may befanless and humless.It may be possible to remove all fans and hums from your computer.Many people just quieten the HDD rather than make it completelynoiseless. They buy a silent drive enclosure and put certain modelsof seagate barracude in there. (I can't recommend any particular ones,except *maybe* the discontinued st340016a which was, from memory,listed on the seagate website as noise=2bels(20db) and the drive iscompletely sealed. It's like a metallic block.Power supply fans are the great evil of a so-called silent computer.At last there's a possibility of a PSU that's completely noiseless.Maybe it hums though(probably depends on if the tranformers are madefrom ferrite), I haven't tried it. The PSU is expensiveand the PSU is a sealed box not a card. It's a proper PSU, and thenicest looking PSU i've ever seen. If you were crazy you could mod itand put a window on it, it's a bit expensive buy, let alone to sawinto. A truly noiseless PSU is like the crown jewels. I hope itdoesn't hum.http://www.siliconacoustics.com/siliconacoustics/silpc.htmlBeware of the other so-called fanless PSUs, yeah, they're fanless, butthey require about 30cfm(cubic feet per minute) of air passing overthem to cool them. i.e. they require a fan over them.If you want to mess around, or if that extremely promising silentmaxxpsu falls flat then-Some people say that a 7v panaflow fan is noiseless, and have moddedtheir panaflow fan to 7v, along with their PSU to take 2 panaflowfans. I'm no electrician, but from consulting with an electrician,and successfully removing the fan from my power supply, i've learntthat if the PSU is switched off, it is impossible to be electricuted.There are capacitors in there that store some charge, don't touchthem. You can always wait a few hours for the charge to drain fromthem, if you want to be extra careful, wait a day. People that havetouched them have just been left with a sore finger tip for a coupleof weeks. You can always get a fan speed controller or voltageregulator for the panaflow fan so you don't have to mod it to 7v.Modding the fan to 7vis called the '7v fan mod' it's a classic mod. You can google it.Here is a google posting summarising it well in words. THe web hasnice pictures, but rarely a textual description as concise as thisone.From: Nervil (nervil@my-dejanews.com)Subject: Re: How to quiet a PC?View: Complete Thread (3 articles)Original FormatNewsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chipsDate: 1999/05/11This CPU cooler should be completely noiseless. I haven't tried it.googling CPU+fanless+fins should find it whenever you need it.Here's the link.http://www.tsheatronics.co.jp/zen/english/ncu1000_e.htmlIt certainly looks as revolutionary as the silentmaxx PSU.There's a good chance that the silentmaxx PSU, and this PSU coolerdon't hum.Water-cooling CPUs (not the above), have fans.Some people say the flower cooler(not the above) with the fanswitched off is completely noiseless. It'd only do for a low powerprocessor though, like the via c3 which is an embedded processor.Via Eden computers have embedded processors that don't require a fanor any additional cooler.As via computers are so low on power, they can take a little powersupply card+AC/DC adaptor.The power supply card is fanless, but hums loudly.Run them out of the case, and you have a fanless computer. Otherwiseyou should have a case fan.Note that you'd still have to deal with HDD noise and PSU cardnoise(if you can hear the PSU card - I can. The PSU cards are made byLex and Morex, i'm told that they hum because they use cheaptransformers, not made from ferrite, but from a cheaper form of iron,so they vibrate at an audible frequency. I can hear the high pitchedhum, most people are happy with them though)I haven't done much research on silencing cheap transformers, but 1google postingI ran into by chacne may hold the answerFrom: Dummy (ahkit1021@yahoo.com)Subject: How to use ferrite beads to attenuate high-freq noise?The Via c3 computer also has an embedded processor, but requirescooling. I know of a person that has done this with a flower coolerwith the fan turned off. You can always monitor the CPU temperature,there are programs for that sort of thing e.g. wcpuidStill, you'll need a power supply, the most suitable is the powersupply card, lex and morex make them, and they hum. Though mostpeople don't notice it. At least it's not as bad as a TV on mute, butit's the same pitch. If you're going to get the silentmaxx, then youmay as well get a proper computer.whisperpc claim to make silent computers, the man says his computersare fanless, I believe him. Whether they're silent or not is anothermatter. Maybe a silentish type of seagate barracude hdd in aSilentDrive, inside a chassis(computer case) is inaudible. I won'tknow unless I buy one and find out, and i don't plan on it - i'vespent enough, and i don't mind my case fan noises. Their websitewww.whisperpc.co.uk has been down for ages. I *think* he onceemailed me and said he used heatpipes(different to heatsinks).One thing which I did was extend the wires on my power supply and movethe power supply out of my room. The extension wires you buy wouldhave to be the same gage/thickness, not thinner, than the wires you'reextending. It was horrendously boring extending dozens of wires andyou have to establish a technique otherwise you'll get them alltangled and have to start all over again.I did finish enough power connectors to try it. It worked butswitching on the computer was a awkward. I had to push the powerswitch and it wouldn't turn on, then flick one of the wires and itwould go on. I stopped using it when I read that it could spike thecomputer. (note, you can get a surge protector so your computer isn'tdestroyed when it happens) but i'm don't want a weird PSU like that.Also, looking at the PSU gave me bad memories of extending all thosewires.Unfortunately the SilentMaxx hadn't come out at the time when I wasdoing that. If it had, I would have bought it.Another technique to cool your case and PSU is using long Air ducts,with the fan ends out of your room. I haven't tried it, but it's isdone. Or - and i don't recommend this - put the end of the duct outthe window or through a hole in the wall leading outside, with the endof the ducts tilted downwards to avoid rain.This is a bad era to go looking for a completely noiseless computer.There are too many bad boy components, and you need a lot of luck andtime and money for experimentation. Hence I drown out the highpitched noise with a lower pitched noise.To summarise:*************************** Silent PSU *******************************Method a) Of Silencing PSU SilentMaxx looks promising that it will be perfect(humless), if it works, and doesn't hum, then I think it's worth its price. I WOULD HAVE BOUGHT IT HAD IT BEEN AVAILABLE EARLIER.(probably willin the future) http://www.siliconacoustics.com/siliconacoustics/silpc.htmlMethod b) Of Silencing PSUMorex/Lex Power card. Cheap, but hums - no good for me. Maybethat google posting can make it completely noiseless. THey wouldbe put in Via computers btw, the via website is aweful, I usewww.linitx.comI GOT IT AND WISHED I HADN'T. Linitx were amazing though greatsupport, great website. via website has some specs though - if youcan fine them, they're useful.Method c) Of Silencing PSUA So-called quiet PSU. Just a PSU with a quiet fan. Zalman makeone, Nexus is supposed to be quiet. QuietPc make one. There areloads. I wouldn't risk it I GOT THE BEST ONE FOR ITS TIME ANDSENT IT BACK - Too high pitched.Method d) Of Silencing PSU7v fan mod of 2 panaflow fans (panaflow is popular) one on thebottom of the PSU, the part of it above the CPU, sucking.Another at the back blowing.From memory, i think that's recommended by AMD's case coolingguide. You can put a temperature probe in there. In which caseknow what temp the PSU normally runs at by using the probebefore modding the PSU. I haven't tried this. It looks likefun, will do it one day. Don't have high hopes that it'll workthough, but it should be a great improvement to a typical PSU.See footnote [1] Don't be suprised if the fan wires don't matchthe wires that the power supply wants.See footnote [2] about blowhole making equipmentnote: people that have done it and probed the temperature saythat 1 panaflow is not enough. You must use 2.Method e) Of Silencing PSUThe heatpipe (different to heatsink). This is a serious mod. Ihave no idea if it's silent. Apparently some heatpipes are noisy.Method f) Of Silencing PSUSomehow get hold of a quiet PSU fan from a zalman or other model ofPSU and install it yourself. That's really screwing the system!Some PSUs have the fans soldered in, no big deal, wires can be cut.See footnote [1] Don't be suprised if the fan wires don't matchthe wires that the power supply wants.See footnote [2] about blowhole making equipmentMethod g) Of Silencing PSUIf you find that a really low power PSU with a fan is effective,like the ones that linitx.com sell on some of their viamachines, then you could use many of them to power up thecomputer and devices. Apparently the Mod is very simple.In order to get a PSU to run without plugging it into themotherboard, seehttp://www.gideontech.com/guides/psu_powerup/ It's awonderful guide. I suggest buying a little atx extension cableand modding that. I haven't done that yet though. Scott Muellerwarns that you should use a low wattage solderingiron so as not to damage electronics. Not more than 30w. Inthis case, there's a risk of burning the plastic a bit.Method h) Extending PSU wires - DON'T DO IT. COULD CAUSE SPIKE (forelectical reasons that i don't know about - yet)*********************Silencing CPU *****************************Method a) Of Silent CPUThe passive(fanless) heatsink cooler with fins coolinghttp://www.tsheatronics.co.jp/zen/english/ncu1000_e.htmlIt looks promising that it will be perfect (humless), don't know theprice though. If it was available earlier, I would have bought it.Method b) Of Silencing CPUA quiet fan (if you have a noisy PSU fan then you *probably* won'tnotice a quiet CPU fan) Unfortunately CPU Fans can be high pitched,though so can PSU fans. I can't guarantee anything.Method c) Of Silencing CPUThe zalman flower cooler. It comes with a fan, but if you have a lowpower processor like the via c3 then you can turn the fan off. Atleastthat's what a lot of people do. I've never done it myself. You shouldmonitor its temperature if you do. There's software that'll do it likewcpuid, or temperature probes.Method d) Of Silencing CPUGet a via eden and then you don't need to add any cooling to the CPU.It's got a passive(fanless) heatsink built over it***********************Case cooling**************************Method a) of Case coolingPanaflow fans (may need to make a blowhole, see footnote [2])Method b) of Case coolingSome other make of 'quiet' case fan (may need to make a blowhold,see footnote [2])Method c) of Case coolingUse 2 air ducts 1 to suck and 1 to blow air out of the case. I'venever tried it, but maybe if you make the ducts really long so theygo out of your room. Attach fans to the end of the ducts that areoutside the room, 1 to suck, 1 to blow (fans suck or blow dependingon which way you put them in). I don't know how effective this is.You can check the ducts, hopefully 1 fan at the end is enough to blowor suck the air all the way along. I think it should be, but you haveto try it to make sure.Method d) of Case coolingIt's bad and against all manufacturer's recommendations to do so, butone could take the cover off the computer and monitor the temperature,many people find that it's ok.Method e) of Case coolingMaybe many little case fans, or 2 very large(120mm) case fans at lowrpm, would be a little bit quiet, but i wouldn't count on it.Method f) of Case coolingMaybe many 7v panaflows would do it nicely.Method g) of Case coolingSome say water-cooled cases are very quiet. Koolance make water-cooled cases. They may require a case fan, albeit a lower powered onethan would be needed had the case not had the water-cool feature.*****************************Hard drive 'silencing' *****************note: Hard drive silencing looks bleak. There's seems to be nopromising way to have a completely silent HDD. Maybe i'll run into asilent HDD 1 day, or maybe we'll just have to wait till HDDs arereplaced. I should find out why those little computers i've seen seemso quiet, why i couldn't hear the HDD. Maybe if I ran them in my roomi'd hear it. (I mention the little computers later)Method a) Of hard drive 'silencing'Use a 'quiet' model of Seagate barracude and put it in a SilentDriveto muffle the soundMethod b) Of hard drive 'silencing'usb kvm extender with the bios set to boot off the usb device. (youcan get a usb hard drive, or a usb-ide adaptor) (everybody should havea usb-ide adaptor anyway)Monitor Look at TFT ones. Buy and sell on ebay until you find a quietone. You can only judge for yourself. They may all actually be veryquiet. I don't know if there's a truly noiseless one.Mouse/Keyb I'm sure there are quiet keyboards, the mouse/keyb noise doesn't bother me.Complete solutionsmaybe whisperpc.co.uk, though they're expensive.There are some computers that I may have found completely inaudible,really small computers, smaller than laptops, (I could guess thatthey're palmtops though i thought palm tops weren't so powerfull. Ihaven't got time to look into exactly what models they are right now,I'll repost this with the details another time). They're propercomputers that run Windows XP, but they're expensive, though so iswhisperpc. You see them in regular computer shops - At least intottenham court road (rip-off road in rip-off britain). You can takethe idea further, as if you have a LAN, e.g. a broadband connectionusing a router instead of a modem, and plug another computer into therouter. Then you can use VNC or Radmin to access a fast noisy computersomewhere else in the house as if you're at that computer. If you'reat work and you have a fast connection, then you can connect up toyour fast computer at home, it may be in almost real time.However, if a connection is 56k, then it wouldn't be much fun to usecontinuously.If the small computer is powerful enough, then you won't need toaccess a fast computer anyway. Note, maybe if I bought one I'd beable to hear it clearly. I can't imagine that the HDD is inaudible.There are 2 models and many types of IBM thinkpad X22 (about 20 ineach model). I'm think that 1 in particular, is completely inaudibleto my ears (and that's saying something). But I don't know which typeit was, the guy that had it, sold it on to somebody else and doesn'tknow what model and type it was. Most of the types make a veryaudible hum. Maybe if i had used it in my room for a couple of hoursi'd have started to hear the HDD, the hum of the PSU e.t.c., but i didreally put my ear to it and didn't hear a thing.[1]I've noticed that some PSU fans have 3 wires (2 black, 1 red)othershave 2 wires (1 black, 1 red).Some CPU fans, are (Red,Black,Yellow) others are (Red,black,black).Some case fans are (Red Black,yellow) Others are (Red,Black)With my red+black case fan the wires lead to a 4-pin power connector.There may be other possibilities for fan colours.I don't yet have the electronics/electrical knowledge to change 1 setof colours/voltages to another set of colours/voltages[2] A blowhole - hole for a fan. Requires either Drill and hacksaw or Drill and Rotary tool or Drill and a holesaw (a holesaw is a type of drillbit, you wantit the right size. Note that fans come in 40mm,60mm,80mm,90mm,92mm -most people don't bother with 40mm and 60mm, maybe lots of little oneswould be quiet.) I think a holesaw requires a special arbor bit. Theholesaw way may be very expensive, especially if you don't have adrill.I guess you can cut a square or an octagon. Below is an ascii drawingof an octagonal blowholeproduced by pbrush, passed through ASCGEN and amended in MS Word usingALT+mouse dragging. (ascgen and that feature of word are highlyrecommended, hence i squeezed that in)The 'M's on the diagram mark where the drill holes screws would go.Circles are good too. MMMMMMB MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM .MMMMMM MMMMMM: @M MZ MMMMMM MMMMMMMM; ZM MMMMMM M; MM BSaZZM WM M: XM, 7Mi M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M MMZ ZMM SMM MS SZ :ai MM@8SM M@ .:M M20MMM MMMMMM iMM. MMX MMMMMM MMMMMM MMMZ 7MM MMMMMM,MMMMMM SMMMMMMMMMMMMM0 , MMMMMMThe following are unusual ideas. Not mine, I have no idea if theywould work, I probably wouldn't try. From: Kalypso (techpro@mindspring.com) Subject: The ultimate Quiet & Cool solution This is the only article in this thread View: Original Format Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Date: 1997/12/27 or, Putting your computer in an oil bath.


---

You're never alone with - schizophrenia!

[Timothy Daniels]

"Gary D." wrote: I've tried building fan baffles using various tubing attached to the rear of the PC fan outlet - it can help but after a few hours of use the top of the PC case gets quite warm - I wouldn't want to risk leaving it on all day, overheating and/or fire risk.


Have you thought about just building a 4-sided plywood box
around it that had cheap carpeting stapled to the inside surfaces?
The box could even have a carpeted floor that didn't extend all
the way to the rear wall so that cables could still drop down
behind the desk. The front and rear walls could be doors that
swung open for access to cables (rear) and to drives (front),
and the front door would be open at the bottom (à la bar room
door) to allow fresh air intake. Essentially, that would be giving
up on quiet fans and relying instead on a sound absorbing partial
cabinet around the case. The reason that companies haven't
offered them is that they are so low tech (and bulky and heavy)
that there would be no profit in them. But that makes them
perfect for the homebuilder.


*TimDaniels*

[Biffo]

On this day of our lord, Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:42:28 +0100, Gary D.
<nobody.nospam@adsl.virgin.net> quilled:
I replaced my PSU's fan with a Vantec Stealth 80mm fan (reviewed asbeing supposedly "silent") - it reduced the noise levels slightly butI still consider my PC to be as noisy as hell.

Panaflow fans are apparently quieter than Vantec Stealth. Also you can
get PSU's like the Zalman that run the fan in the PSU at very low rpm
unless the temp get's inside the PSU gets over 50deg c.

[Biffo]

On this day of our lord, Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:59:04 -0700, "Timothy
Daniels" <TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> quilled:

Have you thought about just building a 4-sided plywood boxaround it that had cheap carpeting stapled to the inside surfaces?The box could even have a carpeted floor that didn't extend allthe way to the rear wall so that cables could still drop downbehind the desk. The front and rear walls could be doors thatswung open for access to cables (rear) and to drives (front),and the front door would be open at the bottom (à la bar roomdoor) to allow fresh air intake. Essentially, that would be givingup on quiet fans and relying instead on a sound absorbing partialcabinet around the case. The reason that companies haven'toffered them is that they are so low tech (and bulky and heavy)that there would be no profit in them. But that makes themperfect for the homebuilder.*TimDaniels*

There is one on the market. Looks pretty ugly though and building this
yourself would be quite easy so long as you have the necesary tools.

[Johannes H Andersen]

Timothy Daniels wrote: "Gary D." wrote: I've tried building fan baffles using various tubing attached to the rear of the PC fan outlet - it can help but after a few hours of use the top of the PC case gets quite warm - I wouldn't want to risk leaving it on all day, overheating and/or fire risk. Have you thought about just building a 4-sided plywood box around it that had cheap carpeting stapled to the inside surfaces? The box could even have a carpeted floor that didn't extend all the way to the rear wall so that cables could still drop down behind the desk. The front and rear walls could be doors that swung open for access to cables (rear) and to drives (front), and the front door would be open at the bottom (à la bar room door) to allow fresh air intake. Essentially, that would be giving up on quiet fans and relying instead on a sound absorbing partial cabinet around the case. The reason that companies haven't offered them is that they are so low tech (and bulky and heavy) that there would be no profit in them. But that makes them perfect for the homebuilder.

A problem though with this solution is that it also keep the heat
inside. Sound absorbing material is usually also heat insulating.
Secondly, our sound perception follows a logarithmic scale; a
small audible reduction of 3 dB require a 50% reduction in sound
energy.

[Timothy Daniels]

"Johannes H Andersen" replied: Timothy Daniels wrote: Have you thought about just building a 4-sided plywood box around it that had cheap carpeting stapled to the inside surfaces? The box could even have a carpeted floor that didn't extend all the way to the rear wall so that cables could still drop down behind the desk. The front and rear walls could be doors that swung open for access to cables (rear) and to drives (front), and the front door would be open at the bottom (à la bar room door) to allow fresh air intake. Essentially, that would be giving up on quiet fans and relying instead on a sound absorbing partial cabinet around the case. The reason that companies haven't offered them is that they are so low tech (and bulky and heavy) that there would be no profit in them. But that makes them perfect for the homebuilder. A problem though with this solution is that it also keep the heat inside. Sound absorbing material is usually also heat insulating. Secondly, our sound perception follows a logarithmic scale; a small audible reduction of 3 dB require a 50% reduction in sound energy.


Read the description again. There is no top to this cabinet,
and there is free convection in the rear since there is no floor
under the rear cables, and the front door does not go all the way
down to the desk surface. There is no interference with air flow,
and there is no dependence at all on conduction. All this cabinet
does is force most of the sound to bounce at least once off a
carpeted surface. A reduction of more than 50% of sound energy
is easy. I did a crude experiment of just suspending a 2'x3' sheet
of carpet against the wall behind my midi tower, and the reduction
in sound was surprising.


*TimDaniels*

[Gary D.]

On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:35:43 -0700, Biffo <biffo@SPAMTRAP.invalid>
wrote:
On this day of our lord, Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:42:28 +0100, Gary D.<nobody.nospam@adsl.virgin.net> quilled:I replaced my PSU's fan with a Vantec Stealth 80mm fan (reviewed asbeing supposedly "silent") - it reduced the noise levels slightly butI still consider my PC to be as noisy as hell.Panaflow fans are apparently quieter than Vantec Stealth. Also you canget PSU's like the Zalman that run the fan in the PSU at very low rpmunless the temp get's inside the PSU gets over 50deg c.

I didn't go for Panalflow fans because of an article I read on the web
(can't remember where!) that said not all Panaflows were effective in
noise reduction. I was only a matter of having read that article that
made me go for Vantec, simply a matter of one choice over the other,
although I suspect you could be right!

Another factor I think might still be contributing to the noise levels
I'm experiencing is that my PSU unit is a cheap one that came with my
PC and the PSU box fan aperture is not quite as large as the fan
diameter, so some of the air flow is hitting the edges of the box
aperture and this, I guess, must be causing turbulence and thus the
annoying "hiss". To remedy this would involve removing the entire
contents of the box and expanding the fan aperture; even then I reckon
any resulting improved aperture might have rough edges (using just DIY
tools) and it's unlikely I would achieve a professionally smooth job.

The PSU box used to have metal cross-members - which I cut away - and
that helped a lot, but I think I've gone as far as I can on
modifications so I'll just learn to live with the noise.

---

You're never alone with - schizophrenia!

[Johannes H Andersen]

Timothy Daniels wrote: "Johannes H Andersen" replied: Timothy Daniels wrote: Have you thought about just building a 4-sided plywood box around it that had cheap carpeting stapled to the inside surfaces? The box could even have a carpeted floor that didn't extend all the way to the rear wall so that cables could still drop down behind the desk. The front and rear walls could be doors that swung open for access to cables (rear) and to drives (front), and the front door would be open at the bottom (à la bar room door) to allow fresh air intake. Essentially, that would be giving up on quiet fans and relying instead on a sound absorbing partial cabinet around the case. The reason that companies haven't offered them is that they are so low tech (and bulky and heavy) that there would be no profit in them. But that makes them perfect for the homebuilder. A problem though with this solution is that it also keep the heat inside. Sound absorbing material is usually also heat insulating. Secondly, our sound perception follows a logarithmic scale; a small audible reduction of 3 dB require a 50% reduction in sound energy. Read the description again. There is no top to this cabinet, and there is free convection in the rear since there is no floor under the rear cables, and the front door does not go all the way down to the desk surface. There is no interference with air flow, and there is no dependence at all on conduction. All this cabinet does is force most of the sound to bounce at least once off a carpeted surface. A reduction of more than 50% of sound energy is easy. I did a crude experiment of just suspending a 2'x3' sheet of carpet against the wall behind my midi tower, and the reduction in sound was surprising. *TimDaniels*

Then you have cut out reflections of noise from the wall. It's OK if
you can remove noise by some simple means. It is unfortunate that the
cabinet sometimes amplifies the noise, I've found that opening the
cabinet on my PC actually reduces the noise, but then it diverts the
airflow which you don't particularly want. Hence there are acoustic
considerations as well. I have tried to shield my PC with a plywood
box, but it gave little result and access was cumbersome if I wanted
to do something. Instead I now have a good CPU heat sink with
temperature control (the CPU fan rarely runs) plus a 50 Ohm 3 Watts
resistor in series with the PSU fan. The PSU fan resistor was
carefully chosen by feeling the temperature of the PSU components.

[Dorothy Bradbury]

> small audible reduction of 3 dB require a 50% reduction in sound energy.

o The letter after dB is the Weighting applied
---- (A) is used for humans - poor at <25dB(A) since it is an approximation
-------- qualitative nature of the noise becomes important
-------- for fans bearing choice, vibration, resonance, blade-to-housing gap
---- (A) is really aimed at industrial noise
-------- hence there is a new ISO standard aimed at super-silent noise
levels

o A reduction of 10dB(A) is a 50% reduction in sound energy
---- 3dB(A) is the margin most people can detect
---- however this too depends on the noise level re 20s or 70s

o Each 180-degree turn you make sound go thro reduces it 6dB(A)

o The most cost effective sound dampening is treating the Cause
---- then treat the Effect - which is much more difficult re sound-proofing
-------- you have lots of holes in a PC
-------- you have case-fans outside the soundproofing inside the case
-------- CPU-fan / drives / soundproofing / case-fan / ear :-)

QuietPC 3-pk soundproofing is very good re price - good peelable stick,
since it's very heavy & ok closed-cell foam. Of course the foam is a bit
lame as it's just ~5mm thick (limited by PC space in present designs).

You need mass for low frequency, and closed-cell foam for high frequency.
Most PC sound emitters are few milli-watt, so it's a foam issue vs just
mass.
Resonance is an issue re fan & other motorised object mounting & vibration.

Treat cause, treating effect is more difficult.

The new BTX form-factor will initially solve a lot of problems:
o Blow thro heatsink, blow thro PC design -- like the G5
---- that will allow sub 30dB(A) PCs
o However CPU & Graphics & HD power output are rising fast
---- 125W CPUs are the first, and frankly dual-CPU machines will hit 400W
---- IDE HDs are moving from 7200rpm to 10,000rpm & SCSI beyond 15300rpm

So the silence may be short-lived - but at least better than the ATX
alternative.

Have fun :-)
--
Dorothy Bradbury, backup email: dorothybradbury21@hotmail.com
www.stores.ebay.co.uk/panaflofan (Ebay)
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.bradbury/panaflo.htm (Free 1st-Class
Shipping)

[Rob Morley]

Gary D. <nobody.nospam@adsl.virgin.net> wrote: On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:35:43 -0700, Biffo <biffo@SPAMTRAP.invalid> wrote:On this day of our lord, Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:42:28 +0100, Gary D.<nobody.nospam@adsl.virgin.net> quilled:I replaced my PSU's fan with a Vantec Stealth 80mm fan (reviewed asbeing supposedly "silent") - it reduced the noise levels slightly butI still consider my PC to be as noisy as hell.Panaflow fans are apparently quieter than Vantec Stealth. Also you canget PSU's like the Zalman that run the fan in the PSU at very low rpmunless the temp get's inside the PSU gets over 50deg c. I didn't go for Panalflow fans because of an article I read on the web (can't remember where!) that said not all Panaflows were effective in noise reduction.

Perhaps because they provide a higher airflow instead? There's always a
trade-off between volume and volume, if you see what I mean :-)

[Johannes H Andersen]

"dorothy.bradbury" wrote: small audible reduction of 3 dB require a 50% reduction in sound energy. o The letter after dB is the Weighting applied ---- (A) is used for humans - poor at <25dB(A) since it is an approximation -------- qualitative nature of the noise becomes important -------- for fans bearing choice, vibration, resonance, blade-to-housing gap ---- (A) is really aimed at industrial noise -------- hence there is a new ISO standard aimed at super-silent noise levels o A reduction of 10dB(A) is a 50% reduction in sound energy ---- 3dB(A) is the margin most people can detect ---- however this too depends on the noise level re 20s or 70s

I have to correct your science here.

A doubling of absolute signal power represents an increase in dB of 3dB.
Reference http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~oded/M151/decibels.html ,
but this is also generally known from any textbook.

Applying a profile as in db(A) makes no difference since dB reduction is
about relative level differences; putting in a profile will preserve ratios.

( Profile * signal_1 )/(Profile * signal_2) = signal_1/signal_2

"3dB(A) is the margin most people can detect" This is correct.

[Dorothy Bradbury]

Human Sensitivity:
o 3dB is the difference in noise level a human can perceive
o 1dB is the difference perceivable under laboratory conditions
---- vis., for general purchase use the figure of 3dB applies

Human Perception:
o 10dB increase in noise level is Perceived as a doubling in noise level
o 10dB decrease in noise level is Perceived as a halving in noise level

Energy Intensity:
o 3dB corresponds to halving/doubling the noise sources
o Intensity is important for exposure times as one exceeds ~85dB(A)

The 10dB figure is rough, but standard practice - some prefer to use 6.
Note this is a *Subjective* Human-Perception issue not an absolute.

Building data is useful - since PCs are just another noise component:
http://www.n-p.com/engineering/sound.asp gives OSHA data too.


However, for PC use, the "A" weight is poor below ~25dB(A) levels:
1) it pooly represents the profile of human perception
---- it was designed to time & sensitity weight loud noises re H&Safety
2) it poorly represents the perception of noise components
---- frequency, harmonics, white-noise or not components & so on
---- eg, hum, bearing rumble, blade-tip-speed, diagonal v axial flow
---- for a consideration of fan noise components see Neise (1988)

I'm well aware of the electronic usage, but when one is referring to
human perception, human factors, the above figures are standard.

Absolute silence is -20, anechoic chambers background often ~16.
Which is one reason why fan design hits law of diminishing returns,
and unfortunately many PSUs suffer coil-hum as much as fan-noise.
Same with PWM solutions that use 1-2kHz PWM vs 10-20kHz.

The solution is fan-&-system design, since correct use of baffles
and moving fans off the case surface allows soundproofing to work.
Work on sub & supersonic fan noise mgt is more advanced than PCs.
That said, the PC even with BTX is somewhat behind the Dual-G5.
--
Dorothy Bradbury, backup email: dorothybradbury21@hotmail.com
www.stores.ebay.co.uk/panaflofan (Ebay)
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.bradbury/panaflo.htm (Free 1st-Class
Shipping)

[Johannes H Andersen]

"dorothy.bradbury" wrote: Human Sensitivity: o 3dB is the difference in noise level a human can perceive o 1dB is the difference perceivable under laboratory conditions ---- vis., for general purchase use the figure of 3dB applies Human Perception: o 10dB increase in noise level is Perceived as a doubling in noise level o 10dB decrease in noise level is Perceived as a halving in noise level

This sounds correct, but you said in your earlier post:

"o A reduction of 10dB(A) is a 50% reduction in sound energy"

So you mixed up 'sound energy' with 'Percieved noise level' .

Strictly, as 3dB reduction corresponds to 50% reduction in sound energy,
it follows that 10dB corresponds to a residual factor of 0.5^(10/3) in
other words 90% reduction in sound energy.

[John]

On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:31:37 +0100, Gary D.
<nobody.nospam@adsl.virgin.net> wrote:

I didn't go for Panalflow fans because of an article I read on the web(can't remember where!) that said not all Panaflows were effective innoise reduction. I was only a matter of having read that article thatmade me go for Vantec, simply a matter of one choice over the other,although I suspect you could be right!

Panasonic (Panaflo), like Vantec, makes a variety of fan sizes and
speeds. Their (Panaflo's) dual ball-bearing fans are rare in fans
appropriate for PC applications, but their sleeve-bearing fans are
much better than the typical sleeve-bearing fan. This allows the
noise reduction of a sleeve bearing but without as much of a lifespan
decrease. Certainly there are other good sleeve-bearing fans like
Pabst, but in general most other good fans are ball-bearing.

The fans generally regarded as very quiet are "L1A", as a portion of
the model number where "L" is low, "1" means "with leads", and "A"
simply means it has no sensor option, only 2 power wires. Certainly a
sensor could be useful too, but this is the most common configuration.

Their "M1A" series is also good for noise reduction if you need more
ailrflow than a lower RPM fan can provide. Of course it's louder than
L1A but good noise/airflow ratio.
Another factor I think might still be contributing to the noise levelsI'm experiencing is that my PSU unit is a cheap one that came with myPC and the PSU box fan aperture is not quite as large as the fandiameter, so some of the air flow is hitting the edges of the boxaperture and this, I guess, must be causing turbulence and thus theannoying "hiss". To remedy this would involve removing the entirecontents of the box and expanding the fan aperture; even then I reckonany resulting improved aperture might have rough edges (using just DIYtools) and it's unlikely I would achieve a professionally smooth job.

Cheap power supplies often have small heatsinks and can produce more
heat per power output, and also may have a more aggressive fan speed.
Replacing the power supply would be the best alternative, and since
your current power supply is still working, if you wanted to modify
the new power supply you have ample time to do it, system downtime
wouldn't be a factor.

Also if the cheap power supply has a likewise cheap sleeve-bearing fan
it may be subject to failure, is "usually" one of the first parts to
fail in such a system.


Dave

[Timothy Daniels]

"Johannes H Andersen" wrote: Then you have cut out reflections of noise from the wall.


Yes. The intention is to keep the noise from getting to
one's ears, not from keeping within the tower.

It's OK if you can remove noise by some simple means. It is unfortunate that the cabinet sometimes amplifies the noise,


That is one purpose of the carpeting - to damp out vibrations
of the cabinet walls. Cheap foamed-backed stick-on
carpeting squares would be perfect for this.

I've found that opening the cabinet on my PC actually reduces the noise, but then it diverts the airflow which you don't particularlywant.


If you leave a 6-inch clearance in the back and a 3-inch
clearance in the front, the interference in air flow will be
negligible. Remember that both the rear and the front walls
of the cabinet do not contact the desk or the floor of the
cabinet but leave large gaps for air flow.

Hence there are acoustic considerations as well. I have tried to shield my PC with a plywood box, but it gave little result


Try it again with carpeting lining the inner surfaces.

and access was cumbersome if I wanted to do something.


An access door in the front, and that 6-inch clearance
at the back would help with that.

Instead I now have a good CPU heat sink with temperature control (the CPU fan rarely runs) plus a 50 Ohm 3 Watts resistor in series with the PSU fan. The PSU fan resistor was carefully chosen by feeling the temperature of the PSU components.


Yes, my fingers are the calibrated type, too. :-)
But you must remember that the PSU fan contributes
to the overall air flow in the tower, and if it has an intake
on its bottom wall, it helps to ventillate the CPU.


*TimDaniels*

[Timothy Daniels]

"dorothy.bradbury" wrote: o A reduction of 10dB(A) is a 50% reduction in sound energy ---- 3dB(A) is the margin most people can detect ---- however this too depends on the noise level re 20s or 70s


In the audio world, 1 dB is the accepted limit of human
perception (if they're listening for it). 3 dB may be the
limit for casual (or "unprepared") listening.

As long as you're referring to human perception by adding
the "(A)" to your dB figures, you might as well add
"apparent" to "sound energy" terminology.

And "db" is a measure of power, not energy; and instead
of "energy", you ought to be saying "intensity" for perception
effects. In short, you mix your terms from the physics basket
and from the psychoacoustics basket. In the physics (and
engineering) world, 10dB equals one Bell - a change in
power by a factor of 10, not a factor of 2. A factor of 2
entails a change in power of 3dB.

o Each 180-degree turn you make sound go thro reduces it 6dB(A)


<groan> And if you spin around 10 times the sound will
reduce by 120dB! If you merely mean "fluctuate" by 6dB(A),
you have some explaining to do about how that sound does
or doesn't reflects of walls, refracts around the edges of the
ears, how it conducts through flesh and bone of the ear/head,
etc., instead of that blanket one-size-fits-all statement. In
college, conclusions stated without any comment on the
methodology was called "hand waving".



*TimDaniels*

[Rob Morley]

Timothy Daniels <TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote: In college, conclusions stated without any comment on the methodology was called "hand waving".
In engineering "rule of thumb" is adequate in many places, although I
wouldn't expect a physicist to be happy with that :-)

[Johannes H Andersen]

Timothy Daniels wrote: "dorothy.bradbury" wrote: o A reduction of 10dB(A) is a 50% reduction in sound energy ---- 3dB(A) is the margin most people can detect ---- however this too depends on the noise level re 20s or 70s In the audio world, 1 dB is the accepted limit of human perception (if they're listening for it). 3 dB may be the limit for casual (or "unprepared") listening. As long as you're referring to human perception by adding the "(A)" to your dB figures, you might as well add "apparent" to "sound energy" terminology. And "db" is a measure of power, not energy; and instead of "energy", you ought to be saying "intensity" for perception effects. In short, you mix your terms from the physics basket and from the psychoacoustics basket. In the physics (and engineering) world, 10dB equals one Bell - a change in power by a factor of 10, not a factor of 2. A factor of 2 entails a change in power of 3dB.

Yes, I already knew that it is strictly sound power which is rate of energy.
However, to simplify I also wrote 'sound energy', assuming everybody would
understand this the right way. But in usenet there is always someone needing
to nitpick (myself included).

[Timothy Daniels]

"Rob Morley" pointed out: Timothy Daniels wrote: In college, conclusions stated without any comment on the methodology was called "hand waving". In engineering "rule of thumb" is adequate in many places, although I wouldn't expect a physicist to be happy with that :-)

Nor a mathematician. :-)
BTW, my "rule of thumb" is: If it don't work the first time,
press harder.


*TimDaniels*

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=F4g=EAr?=]

-
Rob Morley stood up at show-n-tell, in
MPG.19e170069ff980179898a2@text.news.ntlworld.com, and said:
Timothy Daniels <TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote: In college, conclusions stated without any comment on the methodology was called "hand waving". In engineering "rule of thumb" is adequate in many places, although I wouldn't expect a physicist to be happy with that :-)

We call that 'fudge factor', in Chemistry and PCHem.


--
Strontium

"It's no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every
now, and then, I kick the livin' shit `outta me." - Lit

[Biffo]

On this day of our lord, Sun, 28 Sep 2003 15:29:58 +0100, Rob Morley
<nospam@ntlworld.com> quilled:

Perhaps because they provide a higher airflow instead? There's always atrade-off between volume and volume, if you see what I mean :-)

Actually, the Panaflows are only 1500rpm and the Vantec is 2050rpm. I
have a Vantec stealth myslef and haven't actually used a Panaflow yet,
but the reviews I have read said it is quieter than Vantec Stealth.

[Timothy Daniels]

"Johannes H Andersen" wrote: Yes, I already knew that it is strictly sound power which is rate of energy. However, to simplify I also wrote 'sound energy', assuming everybody would understand this the right way. But in usenet there is always someone needing to nitpick (myself included).

Hey! Nitpicking is one of the invaluable services
provided by Usenet. It's like primate grooming -
you pick my nits and I'll pick yours and together
we'll be nitwits, er... nit-free. Or whatever.


*TimDaniels*

[Gary W. Swearingen]

"Timothy Daniels" <TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> writes:
And "db" is a measure of power, not energy; and instead

"dB" is a measure of many quantities (actually on ratios of
quantities) including power, energy, intensity, pressure, voltage, and
impedance. Originally, it was the amount a signal dropped in (power?)
level through one mile of telephone wire.

[Gary W. Swearingen]

"dorothy.bradbury" <dorothy.bradbury@ntlworld.com> writes:
Human Perception: o 10dB increase in noise level is Perceived as a doubling in noise level o 10dB decrease in noise level is Perceived as a halving in noise level
.... The 10dB figure is rough, but standard practice - some prefer to use 6. Note this is a *Subjective* Human-Perception issue not an absolute.

I really don't understand that. I don't even know what the term
"noise level" means, and I certainly don't have my ears calibrated to
measure changes in it.

The best I could manage is to hope that I could guess when one sound
sounds like another sound at half or twice the distance. That rule
would still be plenty subjective, because it doesn't address the
variation of the sound with distance, but I can't imagine a case that
would give a figure of 10 dB or even one larger than 6 dB.


Maybe my rule is what people tend to use, but just tend to get it
wrong by at least 4 dB, on average, but in any case, asking
experimental subjects to judge "half as loud" seems like a really bad
way to define technical terms.

[Gary W. Swearingen]

Johannes H Andersen wrote:
small audible reduction of 3 dB require a 50% reduction in sound energy.
.... A doubling of absolute signal power represents an increase in dB of 3dB. Reference http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~oded/M151/decibels.html , but this is also generally known from any textbook.
.... Human Perception: o 10dB increase in noise level is Perceived as a doubling in noise level o 10dB decrease in noise level is Perceived as a halving in noise levelThis sounds correct, but you said in your earlier post: "o A reduction of 10dB(A) is a 50% reduction in sound energy"So you mixed up 'sound energy' with 'Percieved noise level' . Strictly, as 3dB reduction corresponds to 50% reduction in sound energy,
....

It seems to me that JHH is mixing up two different "dB" units and is
also mixing up sound energy with sound intensity or power. JHH seems
to be using a Sound Power Level "dB" while he quotes someone who is
obviously using a Sound Pressure Level "dB". And sound energy seems
inappropriate here since we don't care about that and have no
reference energy to form a ratio with in the "dB" calculation. I
suspect that he meant sound power or intensity (power per unit area)
which both have the 50% = 3 dB characteristic.


The unit "dBA" (AKA "dB(A)") always (AFAIK) corresponds to something
called a Sound Pressure Level (SPL), which is neither an energy or a
power or even a sound pressure; it is a non-linear function of an
average (RMS) sound pressure, based on one definition of "Bel" (the
common (base 10) logarithm of the ratio of a power and a reference
power). Since (see Note 1) the power transmitted by a pressure wave
(through a fixed area?) is proportional to the square of the RMS
pressure (i.e., it's proportional to the average of the square of the
pressure), we have

SPL = 10 * log( Power1/Power0 )
= 10 * log( (k*Pressure1^2)/(k*Pressure0^2) )
= 20 * log( Pressure1/Pressure0 )

where the pressures are measured at a standard distance. SPL is
favored because it is easily measured with a calibrated microphone.
(See Note 2.)

(The following all assumes a omni-directional (AKA isotropic) source
of sound in free air; a source transmitting constant power.)

From the above plus some even more basic physics, one can see that
doubling the distance quarters the power through a fixed area, which
can be expressed as a power (per unit area) reduction of 6 dB or (from
the above equations) a SPL reduction of 6 dBA. Note that for a
circular sound dispersal pattern (a disk), these figures are 3 dB and
3 dbA and for an (imaginary) linear "dispersal" pattern, they are 0 db
and 0 dBA.

I think that the doubling/halfing one's distance from an isotropic
sound source in free air should *define* the meaning of "half/twice as
loud", but it seem that sound experts have agreed that these terms
should be associated with a SPL change of 10 dBA, based (foolishly,
IMO) on what "half/twice as loud" meant to some experimental subjects,
approximately.

Note 1:

I've not seen a good discussion of the reason, but it apparently
stems from the fact that the power of a pressure wave is proportional
to the square of the maximum displacements of the air molecules which
is proportional to the maximum pressure. (I suspect that this is
because an increase in displacement causes an increase in the force
required to compress the air (F = k * D), so the work done, W = F * D
= k * D * D = k * D^2, where k is some constant.)

Note 2:

The "A" in "dBA" implies that the frequency response of the microphone
which measures pressure is roughly that of a human ear, so that
inaudible sounds are ignored, roughly speaking. It should also imply
that the measurement is made 3 feet from the source in a particular
test enclosure per some ANSI standard, but fan makers often use 1
meter from a source suspended by springs in an anechoic chamber
because it gives them better numbers. The 3ft/1m difference is about
0.8 dB and the suspension avoids enclosure vibrations.

[Timothy Daniels]

"Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: "dB" is a measure of many quantities (actually on ratios of quantities) including power, energy, intensity, pressure, voltage, and impedance. Originally, it was the amount a signal dropped in (power?) level through one mile of telephone wire.


<hee, hee> Good joke.


*TimDaniels*

[Dorothy Bradbury]

(snip - sorry, busy changing hosting & ISPs re Sven still)

Yes - correct.

No, I too don't like the "subjective loudness"
For engineers it's a variable constant which they tend not to like :-)

It comes from...
o Perception of low noise levels is poorly modelled by dB(A)
o Perception of the /components/ of low noise levels being poorly modelled
by dB(A), yet can be more important than absolute sound pressure level

A classic example of the latter is two PWM solutions: 1-2kHz & 10-20kHz,
whilst their dB(A) figures may be identical - the perception is not
identical.
--
Dorothy Bradbury

[Charles Howse]

Baffie - typed: It ain't a problem for me as I've got my power settings shutting down the HD after 10 minutes of inactivity, saves power, saves wear and tear and prevents heat/noise.

I went down the route of quietening down my PC by purchasing a Zalman Cu