White box market share

[Felger Carbon]

There has been some discussion here lately as to how much PC market
share is divided between Dell, HPaq, and white boxes.

Now both Dell and HPaq are in the business of selling white boxes:

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=12637

Can someone tell me if a Dell white box sale (or HPaq) is credited to
Dell's market share or the "white box" market share? Or to both, in
which case the total market share will exceed 100%, which should make
lotsa marketers happy.

[Robert Myers]

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:39:31 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf@jfoops.net>
wrote:
There has been some discussion here lately as to how much PC marketshare is divided between Dell, HPaq, and white boxes.Now both Dell and HPaq are in the business of selling white boxes:http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=12637

"One of the problems is that the small resellers and assemblers may be
able to buy the components and cases themselves at far cheaper prices
than HP can offer, making the whole idea somewhat redundant."

I once saw a diagram of HP's process for new product approval. As I
recall, it was a circle of a dozen or more icons, interconnected in
every possible way. I wonder if this particular brainstorm passed
through such a process?

RM

[Yousuf Khan]

"Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf@jfoops.net> wrote in message
news:DdQsb.11579$6c3.5329@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net... There has been some discussion here lately as to how much PC market share is divided between Dell, HPaq, and white boxes. Now both Dell and HPaq are in the business of selling white boxes: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=12637 Can someone tell me if a Dell white box sale (or HPaq) is credited to Dell's market share or the "white box" market share? Or to both, in which case the total market share will exceed 100%, which should make lotsa marketers happy.

You're kidding, you mean HP is trying this same thing too? Dell started this
about a year or so back, trying to pass off unbranded Dell boxes as
whiteboxes. The standard response from most retailers ranged from
indifference to derision, nobody thinks either of these guys can create a
system at the proper price points that a real whitebox can achieve. Just
because the box is white, doesn't make it a whitebox.

Yousuf Khan

[Felger Carbon]

"Yousuf Khan" <removethisspam.bjsk90.removethispam@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:PPUsb.2539$YX1.119@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... You're kidding, you mean HP is trying this same thing too? Dell
started this about a year or so back, trying to pass off unbranded Dell boxes as whiteboxes. The standard response from most retailers ranged from indifference to derision, nobody thinks either of these guys can
create a system at the proper price points that a real whitebox can achieve.
Just because the box is white, doesn't make it a whitebox.

Yousuf, let me continue my role as devil's advocate:

Any "white box" manufacturer has to make sure that the disparate
elements he assembles are compatible. The mobo has to be compatible
with the drivers and the boards - video etc - that're plugged into the
mobo. The case has to have a proper power supply and adequate cooling.
Assuring these things takes time, money, and expertise.

By buying "white boxes" from Dell or HPaq, all of this research and
development has been done, and is included in the white box price tag.
A small local store with no time, money, or expertise can sell white
boxes that actually work.

This continues my theme that R&D is best kicked upstream as far as
possible. It's inefficient for thousands of retail outlets to perform
this R&D thousands of times, individually. I know you and Robert Myers
disagree with this. I'll continue to provide factual evidence that
supports my point of view. For better :) or worse :(.

[Tony Hill]

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:39:31 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf@jfoops.net>
wrote:There has been some discussion here lately as to how much PC marketshare is divided between Dell, HPaq, and white boxes.Now both Dell and HPaq are in the business of selling white boxes:

Am I the only one who TOTALLY doesn't understand this move? I mean,
the very reason why customers chose white box systems over buying an
HP or a Dell is because they can get the system customized
specifically for their needs with local support. These systems aren't
customizable, and if the store needs to support it locally, then why
bother paying the premium to get the parts from HPaq or Dell?

I just can't picture this as being at all beneficial for retailers.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=12637Can someone tell me if a Dell white box sale (or HPaq) is credited toDell's market share or the "white box" market share? Or to both, inwhich case the total market share will exceed 100%, which should makelotsa marketers happy.

It'll probably depend on who you ask, just like with current numbers.
The two main groups that count PC sales now (IDC and Gartner) already
use very different methods and come up with rather different numbers
as it is.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[Robert Myers]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 00:26:01 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf@jfoops.net>
wrote:
It's inefficient for thousands of retail outlets to performthis R&D thousands of times, individually.

It may be inefficient, but it means that the person talking to you at
the counter actually has some familiarity with the hardware. It is no
more or less efficient than sending auto mechanics to school to learn
how to fix your car. Intel offers classes for OEM's just the way GM
offers classes for car dealers.

If you wanted what you could buy at CompUSA, you could just go to
CompUSA. At CompUSA, you are dealing with a sales clerk. At Dell,
you are dealing with someone who reads from an online database. At a
white box vendor, you are dealing with a stakeholder and a
decisionmaker.

RM

[Yousuf Khan]

"Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf@jfoops.net> wrote in message
news:tiVsb.11992$6c3.1535@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net... Any "white box" manufacturer has to make sure that the disparate elements he assembles are compatible. The mobo has to be compatible with the drivers and the boards - video etc - that're plugged into the mobo. The case has to have a proper power supply and adequate cooling. Assuring these things takes time, money, and expertise.

How much time and money do you think this "R&D" actually takes? Exceedingly
little for a local store. Usually, they throw the boxes together with
"known" quantities, such as they usually put their own favourite video
cards, favourite motherboards, processors, etc., that they themselves are
familiar with. They'll occassionally do a custom job, where a customer
requests a slightly different peripheral than what they've used before and
once they have that little bit of experience with it, then they now have a
new known quantity.

Even when they are selling to businesses and government offices, they are
usually going with very conservative rules of thumb.
By buying "white boxes" from Dell or HPaq, all of this research and development has been done, and is included in the white box price tag. A small local store with no time, money, or expertise can sell white boxes that actually work.

I suspect Dell or HP aren't even targeting those types of white box sales.
They are targeting the "minor" OEM, who is selling a few hundred boxes to a
government department. Perhaps they can create a few hundred of these in
their own factories quite quickly compared to the minor OEM. But I don't
think even minor OEMs would buy from these guys, they'd know better than to
accept a contract for more machines than they themselves can build.
This continues my theme that R&D is best kicked upstream as far as possible. It's inefficient for thousands of retail outlets to perform this R&D thousands of times, individually. I know you and Robert Myers disagree with this. I'll continue to provide factual evidence that supports my point of view. For better :) or worse :(.

Sort of like the way Dell kicked their R&D upstairs?

Yousuf Khan

[Dean Kent]

"Yousuf Khan" <removethisspam.bjsk90.removethispam@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:40Xsb.3675$YX1.218@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... How much time and money do you think this "R&D" actually takes?
Exceedingly little for a local store. Usually, they throw the boxes together with "known" quantities, such as they usually put their own favourite video cards, favourite motherboards, processors, etc., that they themselves are familiar with. They'll occassionally do a custom job, where a customer requests a slightly different peripheral than what they've used before and once they have that little bit of experience with it, then they now have a new known quantity.

I can tell you have never actually done this. I have - and you are wrong.
If you do what you suggest, you are going to have a support nightmare.

I used to buy from a few suppliers who also built whitebox systems. They
would spend at least two months designing/building/testing before they would
sell a new product. Those that didn't went away in the business real
fast...
Even when they are selling to businesses and government offices, they are usually going with very conservative rules of thumb.

Are you speaking from experience, or from whatever orifice happens to be
available at the time?
Sort of like the way Dell kicked their R&D upstairs?

Exactly. Just like the motherboard makers kicked most of their R&D
upstairs, both in board design/layout and BIOS design. Funny how it works
that way, even when you don't realize it...

Regards,
Dean

Yousuf Khan

[Felger Carbon]

"Tony Hill" <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1df63e1b0035721de527f28fa93e279a@news.1usenet.com... On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:39:31 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf@jfoops.net> wrote:There has been some discussion here lately as to how much PC marketshare is divided between Dell, HPaq, and white boxes.Now both Dell and HPaq are in the business of selling white boxes: Am I the only one who TOTALLY doesn't understand this move? I mean, the very reason why customers chose white box systems over buying an HP or a Dell is because they can get the system customized specifically for their needs with local support. These systems aren't customizable, and if the store needs to support it locally, then why bother paying the premium to get the parts from HPaq or Dell? I just can't picture this as being at all beneficial for retailers.

It's beneficial because known-good (compatible) systems can be offered
to the customer for a lower price. The entire point of kicking the R&D
upstairs is to save money for the customer. If R&D is performed
thousands of times instead of just once, the market is gonna be
inefficient and prices are gonna go up. Dell is making just ~6% of
sales in profits... with Dell's massive purchasing power. White box
manufacturers _cannot_ produce the same product at lower than Dell
prices after amortizing their R&D.

This appears to be a polarizing issue on this NG. Why do so few seem
interested in low prices to the consumer for something that works?

[Yousuf Khan]

"Dean Kent" <dkent@realworldtech.com> wrote in message
news:DtXsb.10097$PV1.9430@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com... I can tell you have never actually done this. I have - and you are wrong. If you do what you suggest, you are going to have a support nightmare. I used to buy from a few suppliers who also built whitebox systems. They would spend at least two months designing/building/testing before they
would sell a new product. Those that didn't went away in the business real fast...

Depends on who they're selling to. Home and SOHO whitebox PCs are usually
designed that way. Usually the latest hardware is what is needed to get
customers through the doors. There is no way they can sit there for two
months testing this stuff -- most of the stuff they tested would've been
obsolete by then.

Corporate desktop and server whiteboxes are another story. Those do require
lots of testing prior to sales, but that is basically what is expected for
the corporate market. Just as quick turn-around and the latest hardware is
what is expected of home/SOHO whiteboxes.
Even when they are selling to businesses and government offices, they
are usually going with very conservative rules of thumb. Are you speaking from experience, or from whatever orifice happens to be available at the time?

What do you expect me to be speaking this through your orifices somehow?

Yousuf Khan

[Tony Hill]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 02:54:27 GMT, "Dean Kent"
<dkent@realworldtech.com> wrote:"Yousuf Khan" <removethisspam.bjsk90.removethispam@hotmail.com> wrote inmessage news:40Xsb.3675$YX1.218@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... How much time and money do you think this "R&D" actually takes?Exceedingly little for a local store. Usually, they throw the boxes together with "known" quantities, such as they usually put their own favourite video cards, favourite motherboards, processors, etc., that they themselves are familiar with. They'll occassionally do a custom job, where a customer requests a slightly different peripheral than what they've used before and once they have that little bit of experience with it, then they now have a new known quantity.I can tell you have never actually done this. I have - and you are wrong.If you do what you suggest, you are going to have a support nightmare.

Being there, done that, no support nightmares unless you do something
dumb.
I used to buy from a few suppliers who also built whitebox systems. Theywould spend at least two months designing/building/testing before they wouldsell a new product. Those that didn't went away in the business realfast...

No offense intended Dean, but you went out of business.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[Tony Hill]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 04:28:29 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf@jfoops.net>
wrote:It's beneficial because known-good (compatible) systems can be offeredto the customer for a lower price. The entire point of kicking the R&Dupstairs is to save money for the customer. If R&D is performed

Having worked in a retail computer store, I can tell you that the
"R&D" of getting components to work is basically this:

1. put it together
2. install operating system and drivers
3. give it to the customer

That's it, that's all. R&D for these systems is maybe $5 per system,
and in my experience it's about as effective as the "R&D" that Dell,
HP, et. al do on their systems.

Support, on the other hand, can be a noticeable expense, but Dell and
HPaq are offloading support on their "white box" systems to the
retailer. I just don't see the cost savings here.
thousands of times instead of just once, the market is gonna beinefficient and prices are gonna go up. Dell is making just ~6% ofsales in profits... with Dell's massive purchasing power. White boxmanufacturers _cannot_ produce the same product at lower than Dellprices after amortizing their R&D.This appears to be a polarizing issue on this NG. Why do so few seeminterested in low prices to the consumer for something that works?

In short, I'll believe it when I see it. Dell's "massive purchasing
power" doesn't make their systems cheaper than my buying all the same
sorts of components from a good retail store, so I don't see how
having them sell through a middle-man is going to help push prices
down.

The original article you stated even mentioned that dealers can
usually get the parts cheaper. They only need to save a few dollars
here and there to make the system, complete with "R&D", cheaper than
what Dell and HP is charging for their white boxes and retailers get
full choice of components to top it off.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[Felger Carbon]

"Tony Hill" <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:68ac1ba7b0558e3eef9983a896dd3059@news.1usenet.com... Having worked in a retail computer store, I can tell you that the "R&D" of getting components to work is basically this: 1. put it together 2. install operating system and drivers 3. give it to the customer That's it, that's all. R&D for these systems is maybe $5 per system, and in my experience it's about as effective as the "R&D" that Dell, HP, et. al do on their systems.

Tony, I gotta admire you for your forthrightness in proclaiming that R&D
is free, therefore it makes sense to repeat R&D thousands of times
instead of once.
In short, I'll believe it when I see it. Dell's "massive purchasing power" doesn't make their systems cheaper than my buying all the same sorts of components from a good retail store, so I don't see how having them sell through a middle-man is going to help push prices down.

Uh, Tony... that good retail store _is_ making a *profit* off selling
you
each part, is it not?

[chrisv]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:29:10 GMT, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
I used to buy from a few suppliers who also built whitebox systems. Theywould spend at least two months designing/building/testing before they wouldsell a new product. Those that didn't went away in the business realfast...No offense intended Dean, but you went out of business.

Hehe. A friend of mine has a garage-shop business Any "R&D" that is
performed is pretty much geeky fun. Modern computers are pretty much
fool-proof, bolt-together things, if one has any experience.

[chrisv]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 04:28:29 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf@jfoops.net>
wrote:
White boxmanufacturers _cannot_ produce the same product at lower than Dellprices after amortizing their R&D.

I can't agree with this bold statement. At the very low end, I think
it's true - the cheap Dell's are very price competitive. However, go
up the scale a bit and the Dells of the world start dinging you
"unfairly" for the upgrades.

I compared the system I just built for $1000 with the $1000 Dell
Dimension in this month's Dell flyer, and mine has 3.0 vs 2.8 CPU, 1G
vs 512M memory, a Combo CDRW/DVD vs a CDRW, and a better case/power
supply. (The video cards were equivalent.)
This appears to be a polarizing issue on this NG. Why do so few seeminterested in low prices to the consumer for something that works?

It seems that Dell isn't interested in this, either. I looked through
their flyer, and there was NOT ONE MENTION regarding CRT monitors.
What they offered was an array of flat-panels starting at about $350.
Is a $500 computer matched with a $350 flat panel a good value for the
consumer? I think not. Sure, they will grudgingly sell you a CRT, if
you ask, but still...

[Dean Kent]

"Tony Hill" <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:68ac1ba7b0558e3eef9983a896dd3059@news.1usenet.com... On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 04:28:29 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf@jfoops.net> wrote:It's beneficial because known-good (compatible) systems can be offeredto the customer for a lower price. The entire point of kicking the R&Dupstairs is to save money for the customer. If R&D is performed Having worked in a retail computer store, I can tell you that the "R&D" of getting components to work is basically this: 1. put it together 2. install operating system and drivers 3. give it to the customer That's it, that's all. R&D for these systems is maybe $5 per system, and in my experience it's about as effective as the "R&D" that Dell, HP, et. al do on their systems.

Tony, you have entirely missed the point. The R&D involves making sure the
components work together. This means building a 'reference' system, and
testing various components (motherboard/video card/sound card/etc. and
related drivers). It also means support must pay attention to customer
complaints and make adjustments in the parts. If you worked in a retail
store that didn't do this - you weren't working for any quality store, and
they were not a 'white box' builder.

I did this, and I worked with many suppliers - including white box suppliers
that wanted me to sell their products. I know of what I speak.

Regards,
Dean

[Dean Kent]

"Tony Hill" <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:48b084b7e7a677e4f2102289797c5863@news.1usenet.com... No offense intended Dean, but you went out of business.

Precisely. That's because *I* incurred the cost of R&D. I didn't buy any
white-box systems, and I incurred all of the overhead. Thanks for making
the point so well.

Regards,
Dean
------------- Tony Hill hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[Dean Kent]

"Yousuf Khan" <removethisspam.bjsk90.removethispam@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:LO_sb.4102$YX1.2373@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... Depends on who they're selling to. Home and SOHO whitebox PCs are usually designed that way. Usually the latest hardware is what is needed to get customers through the doors. There is no way they can sit there for two months testing this stuff -- most of the stuff they tested would've been obsolete by then.

BS. They get early release boards. Quit trying to act like you know
something in this area.

Regards,
Dean

[Tony Hill]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:23:27 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf@jfoops.net>
wrote:"Tony Hill" <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote in messagenews:68ac1ba7b0558e3eef9983a896dd3059@news.1usenet.com... Having worked in a retail computer store, I can tell you that the "R&D" of getting components to work is basically this: 1. put it together 2. install operating system and drivers 3. give it to the customer That's it, that's all. R&D for these systems is maybe $5 per system, and in my experience it's about as effective as the "R&D" that Dell, HP, et. al do on their systems.Tony, I gotta admire you for your forthrightness in proclaiming that R&Dis free, therefore it makes sense to repeat R&D thousands of timesinstead of once.

Free? No, but it's not particularly extensive or expensive for white
box systems.
In short, I'll believe it when I see it. Dell's "massive purchasing power" doesn't make their systems cheaper than my buying all the same sorts of components from a good retail store, so I don't see how having them sell through a middle-man is going to help push prices down.Uh, Tony... that good retail store _is_ making a *profit* off sellingyoueach part, is it not?

Of course, just as they are making a profit off each of those HP or
Dell boxes that they sell. Are you suggesting that they should sell
those boxes for less profit than their own stuff? If so, why? If
Dell/HPaq were taking care of support, than it would make sense and
the stores could sell for less profit. But as long as the stores are
providing support then they need to markup the price.

I could be wrong, but what I've seen doesn't seem to suggest that
these Dell or HP white boxes will in any way cheaper, more reliable or
better supported than conventional white boxes. This raises the
question, what's the point?

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[Yousuf Khan]

"Dean Kent" <dkent@realworldtech.com> wrote in message
news:5A6tb.10217$9V4.2872@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com... Tony, you have entirely missed the point. The R&D involves making sure
the components work together. This means building a 'reference' system, and testing various components (motherboard/video card/sound card/etc. and related drivers). It also means support must pay attention to customer complaints and make adjustments in the parts. If you worked in a retail store that didn't do this - you weren't working for any quality store, and they were not a 'white box' builder. I did this, and I worked with many suppliers - including white box
suppliers that wanted me to sell their products. I know of what I speak.

As usual Dean is the keeper of definitions, only he may define what a
whitebox is.

Yousuf Khan

[Dean Kent]

"Yousuf Khan" <removethisspam.bjsk90.removethispam@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:di9tb.69512$HoK.42207@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... As usual Dean is the keeper of definitions, only he may define what a whitebox is.

As usual, Yousuf, who has never actually been involved with it, speaks out
his largest orifice. Nice job.

Regards,
Dean
Yousuf Khan

[Dean Kent]

"Tony Hill" <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:5851f9222f9eb8cf08836a66a7725f68@news.1usenet.com... Free? No, but it's not particularly extensive or expensive for white box systems.

Tony, exactly what is it about a white box system that magically eliminates
any issues regarding compatibility, reliability, etc. that an OEM has to
deal with?

Since you mentioned my business failure, let me remind you of what caused
it. I was a seller of components - not systems. I sold to home builders
such as yourself. Whenever *anything* went wrong, take a wild guess which
component was blamed first in the vast majority of cases. That's right -
the motherboard. This was true even when someone stuck in their *own*
component. I did build some systems, and had a similar experience. For
instance, I built a complete system for one particular customer, who then
put in his own sound card. It locked up in *one* game (Hovercraft, on the
Win95 CD), and he sent the entire system back and insisted that I fix the
problem or refund his money. Turned out that his card (Creative Labs) was
not compatible with the chipset (VIA) due to a midi driver. My support
person spent two weeks testing and talking to FIC and Creative Labs to
figure it out and get this customer to agree to keep the system and use a
different card. I could cite other examples, but hopefully you get the
picture. People costs are 50% to 75% of the expenses of a business.

Many of those I purchased from were also 'white box' builders, and tried to
get me to sell their systems. I (foolishly) didn't do it. Now, they are
the ones about to get squeezed. You may not like it, but it is simple
economics. If you have never run your own business, you probably have
absolutely no idea of where the costs really are.

You have several choices:

1) Do the R&D yourself, pay for it up front and add it to the cost of your
product - and try to be competitive with those doing #2.
2) Let someone else do the R&D and have it amortized over *their* volume.
3) Don't do any R&D and either give crappy support, or spend your profits on
follow up costs.

Most of the smaller component sellers have gone by the wayside, and what's
left are larger resellers that have strict return policies. They also sell
barebones/whitebox systems. Most of them make most of their money on those
barebones and 'whitebox' systems, not components (yes, I have spoken to
several in the past). Just as Dell has squeezed the OEMs, they are now
preparing to squeeze the whitebox makers. Make no mistake - they should be
worried. I would be, but then, perhaps I have enough experience to know.

I could be wrong, but what I've seen doesn't seem to suggest that these Dell or HP white boxes will in any way cheaper, more reliable or better supported than conventional white boxes. This raises the question, what's the point?

First thing that comes to mind: the retailer can return the box to HP or
Dell to get repaired instead of doing it themselves. The retailer keeps
his profit because he doesn't have to pay for so much 'local' support.
This in turn keeps their prices lower across the board. Pretty simple,
actually.

Unfortunately, there are those who would rather pompously talk about
something they have zero experience in and discount those who have done it.
(not speaking of yourself here, but a few other vocal idiots). Try to tell
them that they are wrong in *their* areas of experience, and see what
reaction you get!

Lovely place, this Usenet. <grin>

Regards,
Dean
------------- Tony Hill hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[Robert Myers]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:18:35 GMT, "Dean Kent"
<dkent@realworldtech.com> wrote:

<snip>Since you mentioned my business failure, let me remind you of what causedit. I was a seller of components - not systems. I sold to home builderssuch as yourself. Whenever *anything* went wrong, take a wild guess whichcomponent was blamed first in the vast majority of cases. That's right -the motherboard. This was true even when someone stuck in their *own*component. I did build some systems, and had a similar experience. Forinstance, I built a complete system for one particular customer, who thenput in his own sound card. It locked up in *one* game (Hovercraft, on theWin95 CD), and he sent the entire system back and insisted that I fix theproblem or refund his money. Turned out that his card (Creative Labs) wasnot compatible with the chipset (VIA) due to a midi driver. My supportperson spent two weeks testing and talking to FIC and Creative Labs tofigure it out and get this customer to agree to keep the system and use adifferent card. I could cite other examples, but hopefully you get thepicture. People costs are 50% to 75% of the expenses of a business.
The position of Dell was, and probably still is, if the system works
the way it was configured when they sold it to you, then it works.
Period.

If Dell took responsibility for their systems the way you took
responsibility for yours, they might still have me as a satisified
customer. Or they, too, might be out of business.

The only way to buy a new card and have the system covered by Dell
with the card in place is to buy the card from their "spare parts"
division. Spare parts, needless to say, come with a hefty markup, if
the part you desire is actually available.

In the case of my tussle with them, it turned out that the problem
really *was* something they had sold me, but it took a real rock-solid
disaster to convince them that it was.

I don't think their policy is necessarily unreasonable, but you need
to understand that it is their policy. If you buy a computer from
Dell, you are Dell's customer forever, for everything for that
computer, and any "extras" you need to buy will be at uncompetitive
prices. That makes buying from a white box vendor, building it
yourself, or buying from CompUSA seem awfully attractive.

The idea of selling parts to hobbyists, BTW, sounds like a brutal way
to make a living. The people that I know that do it successfully do
not charge the lowest prices in the business. They make it clear out
front that they will be happy to build the system for you or to sell
you the parts, but that if you decide to build it yourself, _you_ are
the system integrator, and that they'd really rather sell a complete,
pre-built system with an OS installed, just the way Dell does.

RM

[Yousuf Khan]

"Dean Kent" <dkent@realworldtech.com> wrote in message
news:ZCatb.10315$NS5.3868@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com... "Yousuf Khan" <removethisspam.bjsk90.removethispam@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:di9tb.69512$HoK.42207@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... As usual Dean is the keeper of definitions, only he may define what a whitebox is. As usual, Yousuf, who has never actually been involved with it, speaks out his largest orifice. Nice job.

Do you really hope to convince people that you know what you're talking
about by ending all arguments with, "I'm right and you should shut up"? It
really makes you look like a kid trying to hog all of the toys in the
sandbox.

Yousuf Khan

[Douglas Bollinger]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:46:01 -0600, chrisv wrote:
Hehe. A friend of mine has a garage-shop business Any "R&D" that is performed is pretty much geeky fun. Modern computers are pretty much fool-proof, bolt-together things, if one has any experience.

Exactly! I wonder how many people like this constitute the "white box"
industry. The R&D performed is: If the blue smoke stays inside when
turned-on; it's good.

From what I hear at work, most people get there boxes from guys like chrisv
friend. One guy just bought one from Dell, but then again that was for his
business and he wanted something that worked right away.

Of course, government contracts and such are different...

--
Give me a sleeping pill and tell me your troubles.

[Tony Hill]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:18:35 GMT, "Dean Kent"
<dkent@realworldtech.com> wrote:"Tony Hill" <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote in messagenews:5851f9222f9eb8cf08836a66a7725f68@news.1usenet.com... Free? No, but it's not particularly extensive or expensive for white box systems.Tony, exactly what is it about a white box system that magically eliminatesany issues regarding compatibility, reliability, etc. that an OEM has todeal with?

The fact that the vendors don't care? The fact that customers don't
care? You've said it yourself, you did all this R&D for your systems
and went out of business because people buying white box systems went
for the lowest price point, not the heavily tested system.
You have several choices:1) Do the R&D yourself, pay for it up front and add it to the cost of yourproduct - and try to be competitive with those doing #2.2) Let someone else do the R&D and have it amortized over *their* volume.3) Don't do any R&D and either give crappy support, or spend your profits onfollow up costs.

Sure. Chose #1 and no one buys from because your costs are high.
Chose #2 and no one buys from you because if people wanted a
pre-fabbed box they would buy a Dell, HPaq, IBM, etc., not a "Joe's
SuperBox" that just happens to have been assembled by Dell.

Or you chose #3 and sell to people who don't care about R&D or support
and they are buying based on price.
I could be wrong, but what I've seen doesn't seem to suggest that these Dell or HP white boxes will in any way cheaper, more reliable or better supported than conventional white boxes. This raises the question, what's the point?First thing that comes to mind: the retailer can return the box to HP orDell to get repaired instead of doing it themselves.

I doubt it, all the articles I've read have specifically stated that
the retailers are more or less on their own on the support front here.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[Dean Kent]

"Tony Hill" <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:07301fbdf618f818955f28735302a437@news.1usenet.com... The fact that the vendors don't care? The fact that customers don't care? You've said it yourself, you did all this R&D for your systems and went out of business because people buying white box systems went for the lowest price point, not the heavily tested system.

Nope. You missed it completely. What I said was that I went out of
business because I incurred the cost of R&D. Those who let the whitebox
vendor incur it stayed in business. In addition, those who did neither
also (mostly) went out of business. I think you might believe that many of
the retailers who sell whitebox systems build them for themselves. I can
assure you that the vast majority do not. One of the fastest growing
markets for motherboard makers about three years ago was barebones systems,
usually with integrated video and audio. I don't know what has happened
the past few years, but I've noticed an awful lot of complete systems being
offered by motherboard makers to their resellers...
Sure. Chose #1 and no one buys from because your costs are high. Chose #2 and no one buys from you because if people wanted a pre-fabbed box they would buy a Dell, HPaq, IBM, etc., not a "Joe's SuperBox" that just happens to have been assembled by Dell.

Nope. Most whitebox systems are *not* built locally. Most are 'prefabbed'
systems built by a relatively few small OEMs.
Or you chose #3 and sell to people who don't care about R&D or support and they are buying based on price.

You can buy a prefabbed system from a whitebox maker and end up with a cost
that is very close to what you can build it for - and not have to incur the
overhead of support. End result is greater net profits, and a low cost.
I doubt it, all the articles I've read have specifically stated that the retailers are more or less on their own on the support front here.

Please provide a reference for that information. I'll believe it when I see
it. When you buy from *any* supplier, you get a warranty. That warranty
is passed on to the customer, but *rarely* is incurred by the retailer -
unless they charge for it (refer to 'Extended Warranties' for more
information).

Regards,
Dean
------------- Tony Hill hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[Dean Kent]

"Dean Kent" <dkent@realworldtech.com> wrote in message
news:ibAtb.31697$tr1.6614@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com... I doubt it, all the articles I've read have specifically stated that the retailers are more or less on their own on the support front here. Please provide a reference for that information. I'll believe it when I
see it. When you buy from *any* supplier, you get a warranty. That
warranty is passed on to the customer, but *rarely* is incurred by the retailer - unless they charge for it (refer to 'Extended Warranties' for more information).

OK - Here is one quote about HP systems offered in India I found myself,
that supports your comment:

"The non-branded PC kits will have a chassis, motherboard, floppy disk
drive, power supply, keyboard and mouse. Optional PC components include
memory, hard disk drives, CRT monitors, CD­RW/DVD combo, CD-ROM and CD-RW
drives. For a kit with Linux OS, the pricing would begin from Rs 28,000,
while for those with Windows XP Home will start at Rs 33,000. Under the
IMPACT initiative, Redington would provide the entire service and warranty
support."

In this case, the 'pre-built system' is simply a motherboard and case/PS,
with an option to use some (presumably) pre-tested components. The question
I haven't seen answered is how the price from HP compares with what they can
build locally, as that would be the only real incentive for the barest of
the bare-bones.

Here is one from a Yahoo article that supports mine on where the whitebox
systems come from (The date on the article is from August 2002, BTW):

"The white box market is extremely fragmented, King says. While some PCs
sold by small IT service providers are self-built, 60 percent purchase white
box PCs for their clients from other manufacturers. Dell can provide a
higher-quality PC at an equivalent cost to these IT service providers, as
compared to a PC purchased from a smaller manufacturer, she says."

They don't seem to offer the bare-bones configuration that HP does. Their
justification is lower price and compatibility of components combined with
local service and support (meaning, non-Dell support).

Regards,
Dean

[Dean Kent]

"Douglas Bollinger" <dcb@pa.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.11.15.02.12.04.381682@pa.nospam.net... On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:46:01 -0600, chrisv wrote: Hehe. A friend of mine has a garage-shop business Any "R&D" that is performed is pretty much geeky fun. Modern computers are pretty much fool-proof, bolt-together things, if one has any experience.

I didn't see this post.

While it may seem that this is true, it really isn't as much as you might
think. For a home hobbyist, the chances are very small that something
'bad' will happen (let's peg it at 3%, just for arguments sake). For a
business, anything above 1% eats into profits. If the home hobbyist is
not paying for a store front, utilities, and possibly even employees - then
he likely won't notice much even if the error rate is above 5%. As chrisv
says - it is a hobby, not a business.
Exactly! I wonder how many people like this constitute the "white box" industry. The R&D performed is: If the blue smoke stays inside when turned-on; it's good.

But the vast majority if PC buyers won't consider this good enough. That
is, indeed, a very small part of the market. I suspect that more than 98%
of the white box market is businesses, not hobbyists.
From what I hear at work, most people get there boxes from guys like
chrisv friend. One guy just bought one from Dell, but then again that was for
his business and he wanted something that worked right away.

From what I hear at work, most people get their boxes from either a local
retailer (Costco, Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.) or a local PC chain store.
Interestingly, the number of mom & pop shops has dropped dramatically in my
area over the past 5 years. We used to have them all over the place, but
now I know of only two. The closest thing to mom & pop that isn't 'retail'
is a local (Southern California) chain called PC Club that sell components
and systems - and they sell a *lot* of cheap junk, which is where they make
most of their money. When I started in 1996, they had about three stores
here. Now they have about 20 (or more). They sold a lot of PC Chips
boards with Cyrix CPUs back then, and I knew a lot of 'hobbyists' that
bought from them because they were cheap. I've bought a few CPUs from them,
and they have mostly cheap memory, cheap cases, cheap network cards - but
they do have *some* higher end CPUs and video cards (not too many, and they
are usually 'out of stock' and need to special order them).
Of course, government contracts and such are different...

I think most people here vastly overestimate the impact of hobbyists in the
market. It really is very, very small.

Regards,
Dean
-- Give me a sleeping pill and tell me your troubles.

[Felger Carbon]

"Dean Kent" <dkent@realworldtech.com> wrote in message
news:kaBtb.31719$5M1.19808@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com... "Douglas Bollinger" <dcb@pa.nospam.net> wrote in message Exactly! I wonder how many people like this constitute the "white
box" industry. The R&D performed is: If the blue smoke stays inside
when turned-on; it's good. But the vast majority if PC buyers won't consider this good enough.
That is, indeed, a very small part of the market. I suspect that more
than 98% of the white box market is businesses, not hobbyists.

Uh, Dean: read that again. This guy is on our side of the street. ;-)
From what I hear at work, most people get there boxes from guys like chrisv friend. One guy just bought one from Dell, but then again that was
for his business and he wanted something that worked right away.

See? He's saying, "If you want something that works, buy Dell!"

[Dean Kent]

"Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf@jfoops.net> wrote in message
news:HQBtb.1829$sb4.773@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... See? He's saying, "If you want something that works, buy Dell!"

You just might be a bigger troublemaker than I am - you're just better at
it...

Regards,
Dean

[The little lost angel]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 02:54:27 GMT, "Dean Kent"
<dkent@realworldtech.com> wrote:I can tell you have never actually done this. I have - and you are wrong.If you do what you suggest, you are going to have a support nightmare.I used to buy from a few suppliers who also built whitebox systems. Theywould spend at least two months designing/building/testing before they wouldsell a new product. Those that didn't went away in the business realfast...

What's the definition of a 'whitebox' exactly? Does it mean those
assembled systems from a local shop using off the shelf stuff?

I did work for a short while in a company that sold such systems to
end users. I think they did about 30~40 in a week, not a lot but still
never saw them do much R&D either.

They just used parts from brands they trusted for being
stable/reliable and put them together for a 1st system, boot it up,
install stuff, it works, ok, put the model on the list. About a day's
work.

For some really low end config, they don't even bother to test.
--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

[Dean Kent]

"The little lost angel" <a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com> wrote in
message news:3fb70450.70409303@news.pacific.net.sg... What's the definition of a 'whitebox' exactly? Does it mean those assembled systems from a local shop using off the shelf stuff?

Well, from my experience, whitebox is any system that doesn't have a 'brand
name' attached to it. It could be anything from a prebuilt system from
Dell that has no label, to a custom-built-entirely-from-components system in
a garage.
I did work for a short while in a company that sold such systems to end users. I think they did about 30~40 in a week, not a lot but still never saw them do much R&D either.

The R&D is done in one of three ways:

1) Get the list of recommended components from the manufacturer, and stick
to those.
2) Determine those items that are most commonly requested and perform
validation testing.
3) Slap together some systems and let the support guys figure out the
problems.
They just used parts from brands they trusted for being stable/reliable and put them together for a 1st system, boot it up, install stuff, it works, ok, put the model on the list. About a day's work.

Let's presume for a moment that you use motherboards from one or two
particular manufacturers, and generally only a few models. The reason you
might do this is because your experience shows that these have the fewest
problems. This is a form of R&D. You might look at the list of
recommended (tested) hardware that the manufacturer supplies and just assume
it will work - this is pushing the R&D up the chain.

Did you ever ask them how they chose the items they did? Is it possible
that they were using some set of guidelines/recommendations that you weren't
aware of?
For some really low end config, they don't even bother to test.

I had system builders who bought from me. One would buy several hundred
motherboards at a time. They were *always* the same make and model. When
that make and model was discontinued, they would ask me for my
recommendations (and likely asked others as well). They would purchase one
of each model recommended and the next order would be for several hundred of
whatever model they selected. Some were hobbyists, and they would
generally either read THG or Anandtech and go with what they recommended, or
would read Usenet and use (or avoid) what was discussed there. No need to
do much R&D in that case. Same thing if you have particular models you
have been using for a long time.

I think the problem here is that what people are calling R&D is 'system
burnin'. What I am calling R&D is the validation of various configurations
of hardware/drivers. Anyone who doesn't do that is asking for trouble, or
expects to be able to tell customers with problems to take a hike. The
entire point of this discussion is cost - what is the cheapest way to
provide a decent system?

1) You let the supplier do the validation, and you use their
recommendations.
2) You purchase pre-configured systems where validation/configuration has
already been done
3) You do your own validation, either up front or as part of your ongoing
support
4) You slap together whatever components customers ask for, and if there are
problems you deny it is yours to deal with.

#4 is cheapest up front, but we have already discussed the Packard-Bell
scenario, and agreed that this is why they went out of business. I have
absolutely no idea how someone can argue that this is the most effective
business model, and still run down Packard-Bell.

#3 is the most expensive for the business supplying the end user. You are
paying the entire R&D cost - either up front, or in support technician
wages.

#2 is the absolute cheapest, but gives you the least amount of flexibility.

#1 is probably the best compromise of cost, flexibility and reliability.
From my personal experience, having not only done the actual research,
designed/built/supported the systems, and sold to other system builders,
this is the most common scenario. There were, however, times that I
caught errors where incompatible (but recommended) components caused
problems - before I sent the items to customers.

The question of why Dell and HP have entered the market is the one being
asked here. For HP, I believe it is a way for them to get out from under
the ponderous weight of their retail operations. It is killing them in the
market having to try to compete against Dell. For them, this allows them
to do a more direct-sales approach without cannibalizing their retail
operations. For Dell, I believe it is another Michael Dell smart business
move. Use the same configuration/validation as on typical Dell systems,
but offload the support to the reseller. This allows Dell to cut the cost
further by pushing the support costs down. IOW, the reseller pushes the R&D
cost up to the more efficient level, while Dell pushes the support costs
down to where it is easier to manage. If both are doing their jobs, there
isn't a lot of support and Dell can spend their money where it most
counts...

Regards,
Dean
-- L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work. If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
:) Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript. If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too. But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

[Tony Hill]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 05:03:52 GMT,
a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com (The little lost angel) wrote:On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 02:54:27 GMT, "Dean Kent"<dkent@realworldtech.com> wrote:I can tell you have never actually done this. I have - and you are wrong.If you do what you suggest, you are going to have a support nightmare.I used to buy from a few suppliers who also built whitebox systems. Theywould spend at least two months designing/building/testing before they wouldsell a new product. Those that didn't went away in the business realfast...What's the definition of a 'whitebox' exactly? Does it mean thoseassembled systems from a local shop using off the shelf stuff?I did work for a short while in a company that sold such systems toend users. I think they did about 30~40 in a week, not a lot but stillnever saw them do much R&D either.They just used parts from brands they trusted for beingstable/reliable and put them together for a 1st system, boot it up,install stuff, it works, ok, put the model on the list. About a day'swork.For some really low end config, they don't even bother to test.

That pretty much mirrors my experience as well. Similar sort of
store, similar size, though I don't think we ever spent a full day on
a single system. A lot of the systems we sold weren't on a list
either, customers would come into the store, one of us that worked
there would sit down with them, ask them what they wanted and give
them a price. If they decided to buy the system, we would order any
parts that were needed and assemble it all. R&D was essentially none
existent because it just worked.

The major problem we had working there was that Western Digital was
having a VERY bad batch of hard drives. The model we used worked
great for a while, then one month they just all started dying, so we
switched brands to Maxtor drives. Given that it was just a production
run of drives that were going bad and not a particular model, I don't
think that there was much in the way of R&D that could have prevented
this.

FWIW the store I worked for is still in business, that despite the
fact that the manager was completely incompetent when it came to
dealing with employees. I don't know about Dean's neck of the woods,
but there are still Mom 'n Pop computer stores all over the place
here. The only thing I see putting them out of business is that a lot
of the market has moved to on-line retailers instead of ordering
locally.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[Keith R. Williams]

In article <AUDtb.31756$%v2.4365@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>,
dkent@realworldtech.com says... "The little lost angel" <a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com> wrote in message news:3fb70450.70409303@news.pacific.net.sg... What's the definition of a 'whitebox' exactly? Does it mean those assembled systems from a local shop using off the shelf stuff? Well, from my experience, whitebox is any system that doesn't have a 'brand name' attached to it. It could be anything from a prebuilt system from Dell that has no label, to a custom-built-entirely-from-components system in a garage.

Where did you put Quantex on this spectrum? White? Black? Grey?
I did work for a short while in a company that sold such systems to end users. I think they did about 30~40 in a week, not a lot but still never saw them do much R&D either. The R&D is done in one of three ways: 1) Get the list of recommended components from the manufacturer, and stick to those. 2) Determine those items that are most commonly requested and perform validation testing. 3) Slap together some systems and let the support guys figure out the problems.

With #3 being a very common alternative. Most of the time it
works, and if not you'll usually find out soon enough.
I had system builders who bought from me. One would buy several hundred motherboards at a time. They were *always* the same make and model. When that make and model was discontinued, they would ask me for my recommendations (and likely asked others as well). They would purchase one of each model recommended and the next order would be for several hundred of whatever model they selected. Some were hobbyists, and they would generally either read THG or Anandtech and go with what they recommended, or would read Usenet and use (or avoid) what was discussed there. No need to do much R&D in that case. Same thing if you have particular models you have been using for a long time.

....sounds like some heavy R&D to me. ;-)
I think the problem here is that what people are calling R&D is 'system burnin'.

I don't see anyone here using that definition. Burn-in is a
manufacturing process, not R&D.
What I am calling R&D is the validation of various configurations of hardware/drivers. Anyone who doesn't do that is asking for trouble, or expects to be able to tell customers with problems to take a hike. The entire point of this discussion is cost - what is the cheapest way to provide a decent system?

I don't call that R&D at all. I see no "research" and nothing is
being "developed" either. This is perhaps, manufacturing
validation.

<snip>
The question of why Dell and HP have entered the market is the one being asked here. For HP, I believe it is a way for them to get out from under the ponderous weight of their retail operations. It is killing them in the market having to try to compete against Dell. For them, this allows them to do a more direct-sales approach without cannibalizing their retail operations.

I would have thought another brand (say, "Aligent" ;-) with web-
sales would have done a better job, if this were the motivation.
You're most certainly right in that they're looking for another
market.
For Dell, I believe it is another Michael Dell smart business move. Use the same configuration/validation as on typical Dell systems, but offload the support to the reseller. This allows Dell to cut the cost further by pushing the support costs down. IOW, the reseller pushes the R&D cost up to the more efficient level, while Dell pushes the support costs down to where it is easier to manage. If both are doing their jobs, there isn't a lot of support and Dell can spend their money where it most counts...

I think you've nailed this one. It's not like Dell is doing a
lot of (small) customer support anyway. Perhaps they'd rather
not do any at all and move that market elsewhere.

--
Keith

[The little lost angel]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 05:26:56 GMT, "Dean Kent"
<dkent@realworldtech.com> wrote:
3) Slap together some systems and let the support guys figure out theproblems.

This is what normally gets done in my corner of the woods for folks
operating retail shops :P

The only R&D they do is check if the item customer is asking for is
available.
Did you ever ask them how they chose the items they did? Is it possiblethat they were using some set of guidelines/recommendations that you weren'taware of?

I supposed if you define surfing websites as some form of R&D they
might have done it. But as far as I know during their config session,
their preference for which brands are usually based on cost,
experience, cost, reputation, cost, ease of RMA. I supposed if you
count leaning on past experience and hearsay reputation as a form of
R&D, then they did do some R&D. But that doesn't explain away the
exact models they choose :P

And for the retailers, they don't even do this. They stock a range of
brands and models, customers walk in and look at the prices, "I want
this, this, this and this." they just slap together all those things
and sell it to the customer. No R&D and no compatibility testing...
any support issues is almost always entirely the customer's.

Of course some retailers are better and do provide some kind of
support option, but they usually charge for it and the general
experience is the tech support isn't exactly the best thing around.
Some shops do have better aftersales support but it's also reflected
in their pricing.
I think the problem here is that what people are calling R&D is 'systemburnin'. What I am calling R&D is the validation of various configurationsof hardware/drivers. Anyone who doesn't do that is asking for trouble, or

Ok, then in this case, I'm pretty sure they did VERY little if any of
it.
#4 is cheapest up front, but we have already discussed the Packard-Bellscenario, and agreed that this is why they went out of business. I haveabsolutely no idea how someone can argue that this is the most effectivebusiness model, and still run down Packard-Bell.

It sure works down here! :P
Not quite exactly telling the customers to take a hike but generally
they end up paying more to exchange for another part that might be
compatible and living with it. While the better shops might do some of
this web R&D by checking out if there are any really obvious
incompatibility issues and warn the customers, there are just too many
possible combinations for them to be bothered with.

The place I worked at certainly didn't bother, the head guy's
mentality was we aren't building for crazy kids and overclockers, by
default most low end and mid range things will work together out of
the box.
#1 is probably the best compromise of cost, flexibility and reliability.From my personal experience, having not only done the actual research,designed/built/supported the systems, and sold to other system builders,this is the most common scenario. There were, however, times that I

I think maybe only in your area? Certainly isn't done this way here.
operations. For Dell, I believe it is another Michael Dell smart businessmove. Use the same configuration/validation as on typical Dell systems,but offload the support to the reseller. This allows Dell to cut the costfurther by pushing the support costs down. IOW, the reseller pushes the R&Dcost up to the more efficient level, while Dell pushes the support costsdown to where it is easier to manage. If both are doing their jobs, thereisn't a lot of support and Dell can spend their money where it mostcounts...

I can see where you're coming from but I guess my "biased" experience
just doesn't allow me to agree with it going to work out as he would
like it to.
--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

[The little lost angel]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 07:34:03 GMT, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca>
wrote:That pretty much mirrors my experience as well. Similar sort ofstore, similar size, though I don't think we ever spent a full day ona single system. A lot of the systems we sold weren't on a listeither, customers would come into the store, one of us that workedthere would sit down with them, ask them what they wanted and givethem a price. If they decided to buy the system, we would order anyparts that were needed and assemble it all. R&D was essentially noneexistent because it just worked.

Yah, though the place I worked for, didn't want to sell to these sort
of customers. They preferred selling to office workers and the
ignorant home users. The idea was if the kid who walks in knows what
he wants, then most likely he's going to be screwing around with the
stuff at home and more likely he's going to be coming back in six
months with some burnt part :P

So they had a few base configurations and a very limited list of parts
that didn't encourage gamers and overclockers. e.g. At that time, the
GF4 Ti and R8500 were the top of the lines... neither were in their
list.

That said, the equivalence of Mom N pop stores here generally do work
that same way as yours did. Customers come in, sit down, hammer out a
config, build the thing and take it away.
but there are still Mom 'n Pop computer stores all over the placehere. The only thing I see putting them out of business is that a lotof the market has moved to on-line retailers instead of orderinglocally.

Yup... the local retailers are getting killed slowly by on-line
retailer. Yes, retailer, not retailers ;)

--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

[chrisv]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 02:21:04 GMT, "Dean Kent"
<dkent@realworldtech.com> wrote:
From what I hear at work, most people get their boxes from either a localretailer (Costco, Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.) or a local PC chain store.Interestingly, the number of mom & pop shops has dropped dramatically in myarea over the past 5 years. We used to have them all over the place, butnow I know of only two. The closest thing to mom & pop that isn't 'retail'is a local (Southern California) chain called PC Club that sell componentsand systems - an

Not surprising. It really is tough to compete with the big guys on
the low end (which is what most people want). A big challenge for the
white box makers is that, since most people are penny-pinching
cheapskates, they need to build a system that not only works, but
works with the most gut-rot cheap components they can find.

[Felger Carbon]

"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:1jkhrv86tdspgpoukdct1fm6ute77r5nfa@4ax.com... since most people are penny-pinching cheapskates

I closely resemble that remark! ;-)
they need to build a system that not only works, but works with the most gut-rot cheap components they can find.

Wrong. In-Win cases aren't gut-rot cheap, but I prefer them.

[Yousuf Khan]

"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:1jkhrv86tdspgpoukdct1fm6ute77r5nfa@4ax.com... Not surprising. It really is tough to compete with the big guys on the low end (which is what most people want). A big challenge for the white box makers is that, since most people are penny-pinching cheapskates, they need to build a system that not only works, but works with the most gut-rot cheap components they can find.

Which basically explains the populuratity of integrated motherboards these
days.

Yousuf Khan

[chrisv]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:09:41 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf@jfoops.net>
wrote:
"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote in messagenews:1jkhrv86tdspgpoukdct1fm6ute77r5nfa@4ax.com... since most people are penny-pinching cheapskatesI closely resemble that remark! ;-) they need to build a system that not only works, but works with the most gut-rot cheap components they can find.Wrong. In-Win cases aren't gut-rot cheap, but I prefer them.

Wrong for you, wrong for me, wrong for probably most
do-it-yourselfers. But if you're if you're in the business, you'd
better believe that there's a LOT of cheapskates out there.