MS Expecting To Lose Money On Xbox Beyond 2008?

[PS3]

this is from the newest business week:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_16/art04_16/0416_88covsto.jp
g


some reactions on message boards to this

quote:

"Dammit. MS is not losing enough money! Quick launch Xbox 2 now!"

quote:

"The data was provided by Sanford C. Bernstein & Co.

You'll find a case study of theirs or two on Microsoft's own site."

quote:

"From this graph the goal of Xbox program was clear; its sole purpose of
existence is to hurt SCEI by taking away market shares and not allowing SCEI
to recoup its investment, and MS will do everything in its power to continue
to hurt SCEI, profit be damned."

"This is not a joke. SCEI is going up against an opponent with a bottomless
bank account, a vastly superior development environment, and a long history
of successfully eliminating its rivals. SCEI can't possibly hope to recoup
its CELL investment against a rival willing to lose a couple billion to make
sure CELL fails...

It's kind of strange that it will be PSX3 that will be forced out of market
even though it is Xbox Next that's actually losing billions....

Bill Gate's Kill List :

WordPerfect
Apple Macintoshi
Lotus 1-2-3
IBM OS/2
Novell Netware
Palm Pilot
Netscape Navigator
SCEI PlayStation3(TM)"


quote:

"sweet. maybe Microsoft will have the fucking BALLZ to put twin VPUs
(graphics processors) and 1 GB memory in Xbox 2


I mean, if Microsoft is allegedly putting in THREE fuckin CPUs, they can at
least marry that with TWO graphics processors!"

[PS3]

sorry, here's an unbroken up link
http://www.tinyurl.com/397qc

[Aaron J. Bossig]

"PS3" <psx3@usa.com> wrote in news:FYadnZG82IlyMRzdRVn-hQ@comcast.com: Bill Gate's Kill List : WordPerfect Apple Macintoshi Palm Pilot Netscape Navigator SCEI PlayStation3(TM)"

Last I checked, the first four weren't dead at all, and actually
had very loyal users. The last isn't even on the market yet.

Not the market leader != Killed.


--

Aaron J. Bossig

http://www.GodsLabRat.com
http://www.Daily-Reviews.com

[Mr Burns]

"WordPerfect
Apple Macintoshi
Lotus 1-2-3
IBM OS/2
Novell Netware
Palm Pilot
Netscape Navigator"

Good reasons they got culled.

Word was better than WordPerfect

Apple Macintosh - http://www.assq00.dsl.pipex.com/mac.wmv

OS/2 Warp - Vastly over complicated code, ok truer 32bit than Win95 -
however it was slow, clunky and as stable as someone with a split
personality

Novel Netware, they nailed it themselves. Price and interopperability
issues - IP for example, I had the misfortune of supporting netware,
nightmare

Netscape, why pay for something when IE does what I want and for free

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 13:09:23 +0100) it happened "Mr Burns"
<no@nospam.spam.org.spam.eggs.and.spam> wrote in
<40826fee$0$26196$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>:
Novel Netware, they nailed it themselves. Price and interopperabilityissues - IP for example, I had the misfortune of supporting netware,nightmareNetscape, why pay for something when IE does what I want and for free
Netscape is free, I am running 7.0 in Linux, with a free email account too.
I like it better then Mozilla.
It is certainly a lot better then MS internet exploder, with the Netscape
tabs you get very good handling of different webpages at the same time,
easy to select, and exploder does not even run on Linux, so what use is it
for the future.
JP

[MS#1Fanboy-JoJo]

In article <FYadnZG82IlyMRzdRVn-hQ@comcast.com>, psx3@usa.com says...this is from the newest business week:http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_16/art04_16/0416_88covsto.jpgsome reactions on message boards to thisquote:"Dammit. MS is not losing enough money! Quick launch Xbox 2 now!"quote:"The data was provided by Sanford C. Bernstein & Co.You'll find a case study of theirs or two on Microsoft's own site."quote:"From this graph the goal of Xbox program was clear; its sole purpose ofexistence is to hurt SCEI by taking away market shares and not allowing SCEIto recoup its investment, and MS will do everything in its power to continueto hurt SCEI, profit be damned.""This is not a joke. SCEI is going up against an opponent with a bottomlessbank account, a vastly superior development environment, and a long historyof successfully eliminating its rivals. SCEI can't possibly hope to recoupits CELL investment against a rival willing to lose a couple billion to makesure CELL fails...It's kind of strange that it will be PSX3 that will be forced out of marketeven though it is Xbox Next that's actually losing billions....Bill Gate's Kill List :WordPerfectApple MacintoshiLotus 1-2-3IBM OS/2Novell NetwarePalm PilotNetscape NavigatorSCEI PlayStation3(TM)"quote:"sweet. maybe Microsoft will have the fucking BALLZ to put twin VPUs(graphics processors) and 1 GB memory in Xbox 2I mean, if Microsoft is allegedly putting in THREE fuckin CPUs, they can atleast marry that with TWO graphics processors!"
Bill Kill:Volume 4

[Mr Burns]

You make the assumption that Linux will replace Windows?

excuse me whilst I just go change my pants, I appear to have wet these ones
;)

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 15:58:04 +0100) it happened "Mr Burns"
<no@nospam.spam.org.spam.eggs.and.spam> wrote in
<40829776$0$26197$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>:
You make the assumption that Linux will replace Windows?excuse me whilst I just go change my pants, I appear to have wet these ones;)
Sorry to hear you have NS shares.
JP

[The little lost angel]

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:12:23 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
Netscape, why pay for something when IE does what I want and for freeNetscape is free, I am running 7.0 in Linux, with a free email account too.I like it better then Mozilla.

Why? I've got Mozzy 1.6 and NS7. Mozzy seems slightly better to me,
especially with the popup blocking and better cookie/site handling.
It is certainly a lot better then MS internet exploder, with the Netscapetabs you get very good handling of different webpages at the same time,easy to select

Oh yes, love the tabs. After getting so used to them, IE feels
terribly clumsy when I have to open more than a few sites.
--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

[Chris Martin]

"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c5u2c6$1otp$1@news.f.de.plusline.net... It is certainly a lot better then MS internet exploder, with the Netscape tabs you get very good handling of different webpages at the same time, easy to select, and exploder does not even run on Linux, so what use is it for the future. JP

Netscape isn't even close to IE anymore. I don't say that because I
necessarily like IE a lot, but AOL has managed to screw up Netscape so bad
it's incredible. I was a Netscape Communicator user until the version after
they were purchased by AOL. After that one came out and summarily sucked
badly, I switched to IE and have only looked back to test next version after
that one, and find out that sucked too. The first couple versions of
Netscape after AOL purchased them were memory hogs and had serious stability
issues as well from what I found, and I was running them on a 1.8 Ghz 256MB
RAM PC. AOL also didn't do Netscape any favors by not following through on
their promise to distribute a version of AOL with Netscape included as the
default AOL browser thus keeping Netscape in a lot of homes that use the
default browser that comes with their AOL account.
Netscape had a lot of extremely loyal users even if their market share
wasn't that large compared to IE when they were purchased by AOL. However,
AOL managed to do what Microsoft couldn't in their wildest dreams, pretty
much kill off Netscape and hand almost the entire rest of the market share
to IE. Looking back, I still have no clue what AOL was doing buying Netscape
in the first place, it's not like they did the company and their product any
favors. (Of course the same could be said for the entire AOL-Time Warner
merger being an absolutely dumb business move.)

[George Macdonald]

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 23:15:13 -0500, "Aaron J. Bossig"
<linkvb06@spammersWillBeExecuted.ptd.net> wrote:
"PS3" <psx3@usa.com> wrote in news:FYadnZG82IlyMRzdRVn-hQ@comcast.com: Bill Gate's Kill List : WordPerfect Apple Macintoshi Palm Pilot Netscape Navigator SCEI PlayStation3(TM)"Last I checked, the first four weren't dead at all, and actuallyhad very loyal users. The last isn't even on the market yet.Not the market leader != Killed.

!Killed != healthy.

Netscape Navigator *is* definitely dead - AOL announced termination of its
support effort a while ago. If you mean a better, same source, alternative
browser, then Mozilla is still alive but its future still looks kinda
uncertain - they seem to be a little short on funds right now but one can
hope.

As for WordPerfect, I may be wrong but I believe that much of the continued
use is with old WP versions which do not bring any revenue... principally
in the legal profession/business, where many have clung to the pleading and
other templates which attracted them to WP in the first place. Note that
the legal business still likes impact printing since it is not subject to
the same degradation in storage as laser ouput.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

[George Macdonald]

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 13:09:23 +0100, "Mr Burns"
<no@nospam.spam.org.spam.eggs.and.spam> wrote:
"WordPerfectApple MacintoshiLotus 1-2-3IBM OS/2Novell NetwarePalm PilotNetscape Navigator"Good reasons they got culled.Word was better than WordPerfect

Better for what? As a Windows app. early WP did fall a bit short but you
could still do real word processing with it. If you liked eye candy I
guess Word was for umm, you?
Apple Macintosh - http://www.assq00.dsl.pipex.com/mac.wmv

The guy's only an editor ferchrissakes. Ironic that everything he says
about crashes, reboots, hangs is precisely how PC/Windows is perceived.
OS/2 Warp - Vastly over complicated code, ok truer 32bit than Win95 -however it was slow, clunky and as stable as someone with a splitpersonalityNovel Netware, they nailed it themselves. Price and interopperabilityissues - IP for example, I had the misfortune of supporting netware,nightmareNetscape, why pay for something when IE does what I want and for free

Fortunately not everyone agrees with what you personally want to do... and
if you think it's free... look again! If you paid for Netscape you were
seriously misinformed.:-) Netscape is/was free though has been surpassed
by Mozilla which *is* free.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 13:24:08 -0400) it happened "Chris Martin"
<CJMARTIN04@starpower.net> wrote in <4082b9b9$0$16483$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>:
"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:c5u2c6$1otp$1@news.f.de.plusline.net... It is certainly a lot better then MS internet exploder, with the Netscape tabs you get very good handling of different webpages at the same time, easy to select, and exploder does not even run on Linux, so what use is it for the future. JP Netscape isn't even close to IE anymore. I don't say that because Inecessarily like IE a lot, but AOL has managed to screw up Netscape so badit's incredible. did the company and their product anyfavors. (Of course the same could be said for the entire AOL-Time Warnermerger being an absolutely dumb business move.)
Well obviously I do not have the latest version of exploder, but Netscape 7.0
you have never tried I am sure.
Give it a try, www.netscape.com.
But I only use the web part, not the news and AOL or whatever else is in there.
I wrote my own newsreader, NewsFleX.
Netscape does not fail on any site I have been too, including flash etc..
real-audio plugin, java.. only thing I am missing is a quicktime 6 plugin, but
that is up to Apple.
Although I have plenty of political reasons not to want to use exploder, the
main reason is netscape tabs in MS windows are so easy, and netscape also runs
in Linux, so I am used to the same interface.
The thing is rock stable, although it has crashed twice since I have it.
It automatically reports bugs, so what more do you want.
For something that is free it is a great gift.
JP

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 16:15:04 GMT) it happened
a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com (The little lost angel) wrote in
<4082a8ad.770846078@news.pacific.net.sg>:
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:12:23 GMT, Jan Panteltje<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:Netscape, why pay for something when IE does what I want and for freeNetscape is free, I am running 7.0 in Linux, with a free email account too.I like it better then Mozilla.Why? I've got Mozzy 1.6 and NS7. Mozzy seems slightly better to me,especially with the popup blocking and better cookie/site handling.
The last mozilla I used, last year, had some really strange problems.
But I removed it and dunno what the version number was, but there was
some reports in the newsgroups about a fix, so yours is probably OK.
JP

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 17:16:03 -0400) it happened George Macdonald
<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in
<5vr580hfk5r22ajhlnkrrnae6gkdcpj40e@4ax.com>:Netscape Navigator *is* definitely dead - AOL announced termination of itssupport effort a while ago.
www.netscape.com seems very alive to me, 7.1 is there for the download.
If it was to go, I would mis it, but with MS going the way it is going
Netscape may wel be ready for a comeback.
JP

[George Macdonald]

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 22:11:14 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 17:16:03 -0400) it happened George Macdonald<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in<5vr580hfk5r22ajhlnkrrnae6gkdcpj40e@4ax.com>:Netscape Navigator *is* definitely dead - AOL announced termination of itssupport effort a while ago.www.netscape.com seems very alive to me, 7.1 is there for the download.If it was to go, I would mis it, but with MS going the way it is goingNetscape may wel be ready for a comeback.JP

No comeback is apparent as far as I see. NS 7.1 dates back to June 2003,
corresponding to Mozilla 1.4, and on M$ Win systems has a serious bug with
GDI resources which was fixed in Mozilla 1.4.1 months ago:
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=204374. The fact that Netscape
has not released a corresponding fixed NS 7.11 in the interim tells me the
effort/support is quite dead. It's my understanding that AOL disbanded the
Netscape support team which did the "customizations". Personally I'm happy
with Mozilla and do not need/want the Netscape fluff anyway.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

[Doug Jacobs]

In alt.games.video.sony-playstation2 George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
Word was better than WordPerfect
Better for what? As a Windows app. early WP did fall a bit short but you could still do real word processing with it. If you liked eye candy I guess Word was for umm, you?

Early Word DID out-do WP by presenting an easy to use WYSIWIG word
processor. Of course since then Word has mutated into such a bloated
beast that it barely resembles a word processor anymore.

Say what you will about Microsoft, but in this case, they actually did
have the superior product at the time.
Apple Macintosh - http://www.assq00.dsl.pipex.com/mac.wmv
The guy's only an editor ferchrissakes. Ironic that everything he says about crashes, reboots, hangs is precisely how PC/Windows is perceived.

Ironic? Most people look at me weird when I tell them about computers
that *don't* crash or need rebooting once a day/week... They've become
conditioned by the computer industry to expect crashes and unstable
programs. While the early versions of MacOS weren't very stable, it
quickly improved with each successive version. The same can't be said
about Windows. Win2k and XP maybe a lot better, but still don't come
close to MacOSX or Linux.
OS/2 Warp - Vastly over complicated code, ok truer 32bit than Win95 -however it was slow, clunky and as stable as someone with a splitpersonality

I found OS/2 tons more stable than Windows. While a single misbehaving
Windows app required you to reboot your entire machine, under OS/2, it
didn't bother the OS at all. People used to say that OS/2 ran Windows
better than Windows did, and it wasn't an exaggeration.

Unfortunatly, OS/2 suffered from a higher retail price and fewer OS/2
native apps. It could run many Windows applications (Office among them)
but it wasn't 100% compatible with every DOS/Windows program.

[chrisv]

Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
Why? I've got Mozzy 1.6 and NS7. Mozzy seems slightly better to me,especially with the popup blocking and better cookie/site handling.The last mozilla I used, last year, had some really strange problems.But I removed it and dunno what the version number was, but there wassome reports in the newsgroups about a fix, so yours is probably OK.

Try Firefox. Works great, for me.

[Grumble]

George Macdonald wrote:
No comeback is apparent as far as I see. NS 7.1 dates back to June 2003, corresponding to Mozilla 1.4, and on M$ Win systems has a serious bug with GDI resources which was fixed in Mozilla 1.4.1 months ago: http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=204374. The fact that Netscape has not released a corresponding fixed NS 7.11 in the interim tells me the effort/support is quite dead. It's my understanding that AOL disbanded the Netscape support team which did the "customizations". Personally I'm happy with Mozilla and do not need/want the Netscape fluff anyway.

Netscape Browser Rises From the Dead
http://pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,115723,00.asp

Apparently, Nutscrape 7.2 will be based on Mozilla 1.7

:-)

[RusH]

"Mr Burns" <no@nospam.spam.org.spam.eggs.and.spam> wrote :
You make the assumption that Linux will replace Windows? excuse me whilst I just go change my pants, I appear to have wet these ones ;)

ask Samsung, Novell, IBM, SUN and others


Pozdrawiam.
--
RusH //
http://pulse.pdi.net/~rush/qv30/
Like ninjas, true hackers are shrouded in secrecy and mystery.
You may never know -- UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.

[Avatar]

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 16:29:52 +0000 (UTC), RusH <rush@pulse.pdi.net>
wrote:
"Mr Burns" <no@nospam.spam.org.spam.eggs.and.spam> wrote : You make the assumption that Linux will replace Windows? excuse me whilst I just go change my pants, I appear to have wet these ones ;)ask Samsung, Novell, IBM, SUN and othersPozdrawiam.

Blips at best compared to the might that is Microsoft.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sooner or later, all of our names wind up on a Post-It.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[George Macdonald]

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 08:40:53 -0000, Doug Jacobs <djacobs@shell.rawbw.com>
wrote:
In alt.games.video.sony-playstation2 George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:Word was better than WordPerfect Better for what? As a Windows app. early WP did fall a bit short but you could still do real word processing with it. If you liked eye candy I guess Word was for umm, you?Early Word DID out-do WP by presenting an easy to use WYSIWIG wordprocessor. Of course since then Word has mutated into such a bloatedbeast that it barely resembles a word processor anymore.

WP6Win was half-baked as a GUI interface; WP7 fixed most of it that from my
POV - a shame they took so long that many had already been borged... by, in
hindsight, unscrupulous marketing practices. Both WP6 and WP7 did a good
enough job of the font presentation and it was still more useful for
serious work... from my persepctive.
Say what you will about Microsoft, but in this case, they actually didhave the superior product at the time.

Superior for their vision of a GUI - maybe.
Apple Macintosh - http://www.assq00.dsl.pipex.com/mac.wmv The guy's only an editor ferchrissakes. Ironic that everything he says about crashes, reboots, hangs is precisely how PC/Windows is perceived.Ironic? Most people look at me weird when I tell them about computersthat *don't* crash or need rebooting once a day/week... They've becomeconditioned by the computer industry to expect crashes and unstableprograms. While the early versions of MacOS weren't very stable, itquickly improved with each successive version. The same can't be saidabout Windows. Win2k and XP maybe a lot better, but still don't comeclose to MacOSX or Linux.

Did you not see the video? Admittedly another fool who can't get his Mime
types right - had to use IE to see it - but I thought the irony was clear
and seems to be reflected in your opinions above.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

[Nicholas Andrade]

Mr Burns wrote:
Netscape, why pay for something when IE does what I want and for free
Netscape was free to download. I admit it took a while on a 28.8, but
there was no reason to pay if you didn't want the CD.

Adios,
~Nick

[Khee Mao]

"PS3" <psx3@usa.com> wrote in message
news:FYadnZG82IlyMRzdRVn-hQ@comcast.com... this is from the newest business week:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_16/art04_16/0416_88covsto.jp g some reactions on message boards to this quote: "Dammit. MS is not losing enough money! Quick launch Xbox 2 now!" quote: "The data was provided by Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. You'll find a case study of theirs or two on Microsoft's own site." quote: "From this graph the goal of Xbox program was clear; its sole purpose of existence is to hurt SCEI by taking away market shares and not allowing
SCEI to recoup its investment, and MS will do everything in its power to
continue to hurt SCEI, profit be damned." "This is not a joke. SCEI is going up against an opponent with a
bottomless bank account, a vastly superior development environment, and a long
history of successfully eliminating its rivals. SCEI can't possibly hope to recoup its CELL investment against a rival willing to lose a couple billion to
make sure CELL fails... It's kind of strange that it will be PSX3 that will be forced out of
market even though it is Xbox Next that's actually losing billions.... Bill Gate's Kill List : WordPerfect Apple Macintoshi Lotus 1-2-3 IBM OS/2 Novell Netware Palm Pilot Netscape Navigator SCEI PlayStation3(TM)" quote: "sweet. maybe Microsoft will have the fucking BALLZ to put twin VPUs (graphics processors) and 1 GB memory in Xbox 2 I mean, if Microsoft is allegedly putting in THREE fuckin CPUs, they can
at least marry that with TWO graphics processors!"


....as if Sony doesn't have deep enough pockets?!?!?

[Cherko]

a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com (The little lost angel) wrote in message news:<4082a8ad.770846078@news.pacific.net.sg>...
It is certainly a lot better then MS internet exploder, with the Netscapetabs you get very good handling of different webpages at the same time,easy to select Oh yes, love the tabs. After getting so used to them, IE feels terribly clumsy when I have to open more than a few sites.

Try MyIE2, it's an IE enhancer that gives you tabbed browsing, among other features.

http://www.myie2.com/

[Tony Hill]

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 08:40:53 -0000, Doug Jacobs
<djacobs@shell.rawbw.com> wrote:In alt.games.video.sony-playstation2 George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:Word was better than WordPerfect Better for what? As a Windows app. early WP did fall a bit short but you could still do real word processing with it. If you liked eye candy I guess Word was for umm, you?Early Word DID out-do WP by presenting an easy to use WYSIWIG wordprocessor. Of course since then Word has mutated into such a bloatedbeast that it barely resembles a word processor anymore.Say what you will about Microsoft, but in this case, they actually didhave the superior product at the time.

Corel also managed to make Wordperfect an incredibly unstable
application as well. I actually rather liked the Wordperfect suite,
but switched to MS because I was unable to get any work done without
WP crashing! 4 service packs later and WP Suite was halfway usable,
but by that time I had already switched.

Microsoft Excel is another reason why MS Office sold well. For quite
some time it was far and away the best spreadsheet application, and
even now the competition is still left wanting for certain tasks.
Apple Macintosh - http://www.assq00.dsl.pipex.com/mac.wmv The guy's only an editor ferchrissakes. Ironic that everything he says about crashes, reboots, hangs is precisely how PC/Windows is perceived.Ironic? Most people look at me weird when I tell them about computersthat *don't* crash or need rebooting once a day/week... They've becomeconditioned by the computer industry to expect crashes and unstableprograms. While the early versions of MacOS weren't very stable, itquickly improved with each successive version. The same can't be saidabout Windows. Win2k and XP maybe a lot better, but still don't comeclose to MacOSX or Linux.

From an end-user/desktop perspective, Win2K and WinXP are VERY stable.
I usually make only one reboot a month for security fixes. For a
server I wouldn't appreciate that very much (my server-type system
runs Linux and gets rebooted about once every 12 months for kernel
recompiles and whenever the power goes out), but for a desktop that is
certainly acceptable. This is running WinXP Pro. Previously I ran
Win2K Pro and had similarly good success.

The only time I had regular crashing/rebooting was when my power
supply was in the process of committing suicide. Since I replaced
that several months ago the system works great.

For me this is a TOTAL change from Win9x. I managed to crash every
version of Win9x I ever used on pretty much a daily basis. Didn't
matter much what version I used (though WinMe and early Win95 were the
worst) or what hardware was used, even in the best-case I managed to
bring the machine to it's knees on a VERY regular basis. WinNT was a
big improvement here, but I still managed to crash NT from time to
time, but since Win2K Microsoft operating systems have been pretty
stable for desktop use.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[Robert Redelmeier]

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote: Microsoft Excel is another reason why MS Office sold well. For quite some time it was far and away the best spreadsheet application, and even now the competition is still left wanting for certain tasks.

Please! MS-Excel does a few WYSIWIYG tasks well (fonts,
graph labeling) but is severely deficient in other areas like
calculations (recursion/circularity handled worse than 1983
Lotus 1-2-3 v1A) and statistics.

It all depends on your needs. MIcrosoft products are generally
considered "user friendly" because common, simple tasks are
easy to learn and perform. The cost is more complex tasks are
much more difficult or even not available -- "expert hostile".
From an end-user/desktop perspective, Win2K and WinXP are VERY stable. I usually make only one reboot a month for security fixes. For a

At work, we are advised to reboot/repower MS-Win2k Pro at
least 2x per week.
server I wouldn't appreciate that very much (my server-type system

The MS-Win2k Pro servers running MS-Exchange Server seem to
need weekly reboots, often at peak times. :(
For me this is a TOTAL change from Win9x. I managed to crash every version of Win9x I ever used on pretty much a daily basis. Didn't

Practicing "safe computing" and heavy admin (RegClean &
multiple defrags) kept MS-Win9* very stable for me at work
and my kids at home. Not more than one-two OS crash per
machine year. More app crashes.

-- Robert

[xTenn]

"Robert Redelmeier" <redelm@ev1.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:eF9hc.9492$UC3.2697@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com... Please! MS-Excel does a few WYSIWIYG tasks well (fonts, graph labeling) but is severely deficient in other areas like calculations (recursion/circularity handled worse than 1983 Lotus 1-2-3 v1A) and statistics.


The design of Excel is the key component, IMHO. With the right add-in it
can get as specific as you need, while keeping the ease of use and
flexibility. Statistics, for example:

http://www.palisade.com/html/stattools.asp?OVRAW=excel%20statistics&OVKEY=excel%20statistics&OVMTC=standard

http://www.id-bs.com/xlfit4/index.asp?source=Overture-Excelstatistics-1

http://www.id-bs.com/xlfit4/index.asp?source=Overture-Excelstatistics-1

http://www.addinsoft.com/



You should be warned that, without the add-ins, there are known problems.
For a rather biased summation, check here:

http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jcryer/JSMTalk2001.pdf

Of course, if the issues mentioned above were as severe as discussed then
there would be no statiscal add-ins from reputable companies - yet the links
should prove otherwise. Excel is a tool, but even the best phillips
screwdriver will not fit every screwhead. ( Just for the record, I do
believe that Office in general is getting a bit on the chunky side and
personally prefer earlier versions, but I digress. )

[Robert Redelmeier]

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips xTenn <xTennRemovePart@tds.net> wrote: The design of Excel is the key component, IMHO. With the right add-in it can get as specific as you need, while keeping the ease of use and flexibility. Statistics, for example:

Add-ins certainly help add missing functionality.

But can they repair broken fundamentals like calculation
order and handling on-purpose circularity?

-- Robert

[xTenn]

"Robert Redelmeier" <redelm@ev1.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:3gdhc.9583$_X4.2473@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com... In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips xTenn <xTennRemovePart@tds.net> wrote: The design of Excel is the key component, IMHO. With the right add-in
it can get as specific as you need, while keeping the ease of use and flexibility. Statistics, for example: Add-ins certainly help add missing functionality. But can they repair broken fundamentals like calculation order and handling on-purpose circularity? -- Robert

I can honestly say that I do not know for certain. No doubt an add-in that
calls its own functions could have a corrected methodology, but without
adhering to the more strict function set of said add-in it would seemingly
be quite easy to introduce error into a spreadsheet that up to that point
was correct. Not as easy to do given the mechanics and application
otherwise (add-in use and/or dependency), but I would still imagine quite
possible, particularly if such habits ( non-add-in use of related and/or
applicable functionality ) would tend to be recurring in building said
speadsheet by a given user.

Man, this thread is way off from the newsgroup I saw it in. Uh, Xbox
Rocks.

[The little lost angel]

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:40:15 GMT, Robert Redelmeier
<redelm@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
But can they repair broken fundamentals like calculationorder and handling on-purpose circularity?

I'm curious how did other spreadsheet handled deliberate circularity?
Recurse until a stable solution is reached or ?

--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

[Neil Hopkins]

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:57:13 GMT,
a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com (The little lost angel) wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:40:15 GMT, Robert Redelmeier<redelm@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:But can they repair broken fundamentals like calculationorder and handling on-purpose circularity?I'm curious how did other spreadsheet handled deliberate circularity?Recurse until a stable solution is reached or ?

Yep - the old dos version of Supercalc used to be good at things like
that. You'd set limits for the solution and the maximum number of
iterations and it would keep going as long as necessary.

--
"I dunno what the hell's in there, but it's weird and pissed off whatever it is."
Xbox live : neil hopkins

[Robert Redelmeier]

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips The little lost angel <a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com> wrote: I'm curious how did other spreadsheet handled deliberate circularity? Recurse until a stable solution is reached or ?

Lotus 1-2-3 determines what it calls "Natural Order" (can do
columnwise & rowwise if desired), and then if circularity exists,
iterates for a fixed number of iterations. Check convergence by
hitting F9 while watching the sensitive numbers for change.

The circularity better converge by substitution or the whole
sheet will blow up.

-- Robert

[George Macdonald]

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:34:02 GMT, Robert Redelmeier
<redelm@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote: Microsoft Excel is another reason why MS Office sold well. For quite some time it was far and away the best spreadsheet application, and even now the competition is still left wanting for certain tasks.Please! MS-Excel does a few WYSIWIYG tasks well (fonts,graph labeling) but is severely deficient in other areas likecalculations (recursion/circularity handled worse than 1983Lotus 1-2-3 v1A) and statistics.

Alas poor Lotus Improv... progress dry-gulched again.:-(
From an end-user/desktop perspective, Win2K and WinXP are VERY stable. I usually make only one reboot a month for security fixes. For aAt work, we are advised to reboot/repower MS-Win2k Pro atleast 2x per week.

Fine as long as you never get the Login "loop".:-)
Practicing "safe computing" and heavy admin (RegClean &multiple defrags) kept MS-Win9* very stable for me at workand my kids at home. Not more than one-two OS crash permachine year. More app crashes.

My Win98SE at home has never been right -- particularly annoying hangs of
Acrobat Reader 5.1 at startup or termination -- ever sinceTurboTax
"silently" installed IE5.5. All those in the office which I've pegged at
IE5.01 continue to function fine.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

[Tony Hill]

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:34:02 GMT, Robert Redelmeier
<redelm@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote: Microsoft Excel is another reason why MS Office sold well. For quite some time it was far and away the best spreadsheet application, and even now the competition is still left wanting for certain tasks.Please! MS-Excel does a few WYSIWIYG tasks well (fonts,graph labeling) but is severely deficient in other areas likecalculations (recursion/circularity handled worse than 1983Lotus 1-2-3 v1A) and statistics.It all depends on your needs. MIcrosoft products are generallyconsidered "user friendly" because common, simple tasks areeasy to learn and perform. The cost is more complex tasks aremuch more difficult or even not available -- "expert hostile".

Sure, no one product is going to be perfect for all tasks, but I would
guess that for 90%+ of users, the combination of functionality and
ease of use made Excel the best spreadsheet out there.
From an end-user/desktop perspective, Win2K and WinXP are VERY stable. I usually make only one reboot a month for security fixes. For aAt work, we are advised to reboot/repower MS-Win2k Pro atleast 2x per week.

In my experience that is definitely not necessary. I have a tendency
to pound my machine fairly hard, plus I run a fair amount of unstable
applications. While I certainly wouldn't say that Win2K never
crashed, crashes were VERY few and far between, especially after I got
rid of my Creative Labs SBLive!
server I wouldn't appreciate that very much (my server-type systemThe MS-Win2k Pro servers running MS-Exchange Server seem toneed weekly reboots, often at peak times. :(

I don't find that Windows makes a very good server operating system,
though I would suspect that if you're requiring weekly reboots that
there is a configuration, driver or hardware problem with that system.
Monthly reboots, maybe, but weekly is too much for a Win2K server.
For me this is a TOTAL change from Win9x. I managed to crash every version of Win9x I ever used on pretty much a daily basis. Didn'tPracticing "safe computing" and heavy admin (RegClean &multiple defrags) kept MS-Win9* very stable for me at workand my kids at home. Not more than one-two OS crash permachine year. More app crashes.

My problem was that applications would constantly crash causing the OS
to become completely unstable until I rebooted. It was very rare that
I would actually get a BSOD, more that the system just would stop
being able to reliably run any applications (often not being able to
even start the app or start Explorer). With Win2K and WinXP this sort
of thing, for me at least, went from being a daily occurrence to
happening maybe once every 3-6 months.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[Robert Redelmeier]

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote: Sure, no one product is going to be perfect for all tasks, but I would guess that for 90%+ of users, the combination of functionality and ease of use made Excel the best spreadsheet out there.

Quite possibly, but when it fials, it is in unexpected ways.
rid of my Creative Labs SBLive!

Bad hardware, or bad drivers?
there is a configuration, driver or hardware problem with that system. Monthly reboots, maybe, but weekly is too much for a Win2K server.

Agreed. I think somehow the OS leaks memory from certain
thread conditions.
My problem was that applications would constantly crash causing the OS to become completely unstable until I rebooted. It was very rare that

Are you sure you kept your Registry defragged?
This was a common symptom of needing the old
defrag-reboot-defrag-reboot-defrag sequence.

-- Robert

[Tony Hill]

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 02:52:11 GMT, Robert Redelmeier
<redelm@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote: Sure, no one product is going to be perfect for all tasks, but I would guess that for 90%+ of users, the combination of functionality and ease of use made Excel the best spreadsheet out there.Quite possibly, but when it fials, it is in unexpected ways.

I find that to be true about most computer stuff! :>
rid of my Creative Labs SBLive!Bad hardware, or bad drivers?

Terrible drivers! What's worse, the terrible drivers weren't updated
for more than a year, despite having many known problems.
there is a configuration, driver or hardware problem with that system. Monthly reboots, maybe, but weekly is too much for a Win2K server.Agreed. I think somehow the OS leaks memory from certainthread conditions.

I think whoever is administering that server should get on that,
honestly. If he/she really thinks it's a Windows problem, CALL MS
TECH SUPPORT! Seriously, your company is paying big $$$ for this
software, and that kind of reboot rate is not at all normal for an MS
Exchange server.
My problem was that applications would constantly crash causing the OS to become completely unstable until I rebooted. It was very rare thatAre you sure you kept your Registry defragged?This was a common symptom of needing the olddefrag-reboot-defrag-reboot-defrag sequence.

I did all kinds of things on all sorts of different systems, totally
lost count of the things I tried to get Win9x stable, but none of them
succeeded. Of course, it's been about 4 years since I've run Win9x
for any of my home systems and about 3 years since I've used it for
work or school, so fortunately now it's mostly just a distant and
thankfully fading memory.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

[Doug Jacobs]

In alt.games.video.sony-playstation2 Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote:
rid of my Creative Labs SBLive!Bad hardware, or bad drivers?
Terrible drivers! What's worse, the terrible drivers weren't updated for more than a year, despite having many known problems.

Oh god! The pain! The awful searing pain!

I didn't understand how Creative managed to survive that whole debacle...
The installer for SBLive would cause Win98 to instantaneously reboot.
Others reported the same problems. I finally borrowed an old SB16 my
roommate had lying around and it installed flawlessly.

I ended up returning the SBLive, confused as to how this managed to escape
notice of Creative's QA staff, was shipped anyways, and not fixed despite
it being a "known issue" for months.
I think whoever is administering that server should get on that, honestly. If he/she really thinks it's a Windows problem, CALL MS TECH SUPPORT! Seriously, your company is paying big $$$ for this software, and that kind of reboot rate is not at all normal for an MS Exchange server.

Ha ha! You're funny. Microsoft's EULA literally says that any problems
their software causes is not their fault - in fact, they don't even
guarantee that their stuff will even work. So the fact this guy's
Exchange Server works at all is a minor miracle, according to Microsoft.

Microsoft Tech Support is as logical as, say, Military Intelligence, or
Jumbo Shrimp, or... In short, he's on his own.

My advice - ditch Exchange and use a *real* mailserver (preferably on a
*real* OS)

[JAD]

No problem, as the world will end sometime around then ;^)



"PS3" <psx3@usa.com> wrote in message
news:FYadnZG82IlyMRzdRVn-hQ@comcast.com... this is from the newest business week:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_16/art04_16/0416_88covsto.jp g some reactions on message boards to this quote: "Dammit. MS is not losing enough money! Quick launch Xbox 2 now!" quote: "The data was provided by Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. You'll find a case study of theirs or two on Microsoft's own site." quote: "From this graph the goal of Xbox program was clear; its sole
purpose of existence is to hurt SCEI by taking away market shares and not
allowing SCEI to recoup its investment, and MS will do everything in its power to
continue to hurt SCEI, profit be damned." "This is not a joke. SCEI is going up against an opponent with a
bottomless bank account, a vastly superior development environment, and a long
history of successfully eliminating its rivals. SCEI can't possibly hope to
recoup its CELL investment against a rival willing to lose a couple billion
to make sure CELL fails... It's kind of strange that it will be PSX3 that will be forced out of
market even though it is Xbox Next that's actually losing billions.... Bill Gate's Kill List : WordPerfect Apple Macintoshi Lotus 1-2-3 IBM OS/2 Novell Netware Palm Pilot Netscape Navigator SCEI PlayStation3(TM)" quote: "sweet. maybe Microsoft will have the fucking BALLZ to put twin VPUs (graphics processors) and 1 GB memory in Xbox 2 I mean, if Microsoft is allegedly putting in THREE fuckin CPUs, they
can at least marry that with TWO graphics processors!"